ID Help needed please

Mike B · 10-04-2006, 08:50 PM

Greetings Guys,
I recently posted a picture of my newly-acquired "Black Widow" on another thread entitled "Is this a Black Widow". Super Moderator & Super Gentleman John Sabato wrote me stating that he had studied my picture very carefully and noticed the grips on my Luger did not look exactly right. He was somewhat fearful that they may be aftermarket grips. Well, I have the very unique opportunity to say that I know the person who, in this case did not actually capture this Luger, but was handed this Luger by the spouse of the German office who carried it. I am not at liberty to say much more, but from that, I know the grips are not US made or current production. So next thought. Could they be Kreighoff grips according to Mr. Sabato? That is my question to the forum. Could two happy krauts on a Saturday night, one infantryman and one flyboy have decided to swap their grips? Who knows? But if they are modern replacement grips, lay it on me, and there goes my friend's story about his meeting the German officers in the jungles of South America. Here is an afterthought: I am including two more pictures of what I believe to be legit "Black Widow" grips for comparison. If these are not the real thing either, please let me know. The real ones are the last two pictures.

Mike

NavyLugerLover · 10-05-2006, 03:56 AM

My original ones are made with black charcoal material. New ones seems to be made of "softer" material.

Pete Ebbink · 10-05-2006, 01:43 PM

Hi Mike B.,

In R. Gibson's HK book on page 47, he has photo'd some black grips which he names "Black Mauser Type".

They appear very similar to your photos, but the top-most island on the inside, left side grip of your pair is not as long in shape as the pair Gibson has displayed.

Here is the photo scan from the Gibson book; in case you do not have the book :

John Sabato · 10-05-2006, 02:36 PM

Pete, these photos from Gibsons book identify the true BW type grips... that is what caused me to think that the grips on this particular byf 41 were wrong...

Notice how thick the border line is around the grips being questioned and how fine the border line is around the grips in the Gibson book. The difference in the size and placement, and shape of the positioning islands makes me believe that these are either KH grips, or modern reproductions on Mike's Luger. What we need is for someone to post the photos of both sides of the variations of KH grips to determine this...

George Anderson · 10-05-2006, 03:30 PM

I have found that the absolute best test of bakelite grips is to strike them together; true period grips give off a clear sharp clacking noise whereas the repros have a decidedly dull tone. Of course this works best if one has a good pair on hand with which to set the standard.

Pete Ebbink · 10-05-2006, 03:50 PM

More info. on BW grips over on Jan's gun board :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1497

BTW...when I place my BW grips in a bowl of hot tap water, they do not deform or bend.

Other repro grips I have tried this with become quite pliable.

10-04-2006, 08:50 PM	#1
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	ID Help needed please Greetings Guys, I recently posted a picture of my newly-acquired "Black Widow" on another thread entitled "Is this a Black Widow". Super Moderator & Super Gentleman John Sabato wrote me stating that he had studied my picture very carefully and noticed the grips on my Luger did not look exactly right. He was somewhat fearful that they may be aftermarket grips. Well, I have the very unique opportunity to say that I know the person who, in this case did not actually capture this Luger, but was handed this Luger by the spouse of the German office who carried it. I am not at liberty to say much more, but from that, I know the grips are not US made or current production. So next thought. Could they be Kreighoff grips according to Mr. Sabato? That is my question to the forum. Could two happy krauts on a Saturday night, one infantryman and one flyboy have decided to swap their grips? Who knows? But if they are modern replacement grips, lay it on me, and there goes my friend's story about his meeting the German officers in the jungles of South America. Here is an afterthought: I am including two more pictures of what I believe to be legit "Black Widow" grips for comparison. If these are not the real thing either, please let me know. The real ones are the last two pictures. Mike

10-05-2006, 03:56 AM	#2
NavyLugerLover User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: American Citizen outside the USA (Austria) Posts: 65 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	My original ones are made with black charcoal material. New ones seems to be made of "softer" material. __________________ Swiss Lugers, (.30): DWM 1900, 1906 2nd variation, W+F 1906-24, 1929 Privat, 1929 Military, 9 mm 1929 Military. WW1 DWM German Lugers (9mm): Lange Pistolen P08-14 1916 & 1917, P08 1913, P08-14 1917, Navy P1904 altered safety, Navy P04-1906 downward safety. WW 2 Mauser German Lugers (9mm): 42-1940, byf 41, byf 42 black widow. And some other things...

10-05-2006, 02:36 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Pete, these photos from Gibsons book identify the true BW type grips... that is what caused me to think that the grips on this particular byf 41 were wrong... Notice how thick the border line is around the grips being questioned and how fine the border line is around the grips in the Gibson book. The difference in the size and placement, and shape of the positioning islands makes me believe that these are either KH grips, or modern reproductions on Mike's Luger. What we need is for someone to post the photos of both sides of the variations of KH grips to determine this... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-05-2006, 01:43 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Mike B., In R. Gibson's HK book on page 47, he has photo'd some black grips which he names "Black Mauser Type". They appear very similar to your photos, but the top-most island on the inside, left side grip of your pair is not as long in shape as the pair Gibson has displayed. Here is the photo scan from the Gibson book; in case you do not have the book :

10-05-2006, 03:30 PM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	I have found that the absolute best test of bakelite grips is to strike them together; true period grips give off a clear sharp clacking noise whereas the repros have a decidedly dull tone. Of course this works best if one has a good pair on hand with which to set the standard.

10-05-2006, 03:50 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	More info. on BW grips over on Jan's gun board : http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1497 BTW...when I place my BW grips in a bowl of hot tap water, they do not deform or bend. Other repro grips I have tried this with become quite pliable.