Forced matching

[Stu]

I've noticed that the number of 'wants' for a specifically numbered part on this, (and Jan's) board, continue to increase over the years.

I remember when this kind of request got a stiff response as people were concerned that a $X dollar mismatch was about to re-surface as an $X + 50% 'all matching' gun.

Are we all now resigned to this practice, and if so, what premium should a 'matching' gun bring ?

[Steinar]

Personally I don't loose any sleep over this.. Lugers are 'dieing' all the time, especially here in Europe where we tend to make paperweights out of them.

The more Lugers that get's collectable and better taken care off, the better. Unless there has been a Dremel involved or 'wrong type of part' installed to make it a matching, I just can't see why it should lower the value with 30-50%

It's more frustrating with the sellers who makes up their own false story how the Luger was captured, and actually has the conscience to use it to increase the value. It's disrespectful for all the true storys out there.

[alvin]

A friend of mine collects brand-name wristwatches. I visited his home one day, wives had lots of topics and kids played happily. I sat there having nothing to do and read one book on his bookshelf "Rolex Report". The book illustated many ways to identify fakes, a few (among many many more) non-technical but psychological points are interesting -- if you see a seller of complete watch also carries tons of watch parts, should that alarm anything.... or if a seller sells Citizen, Seiko all the time, one day he pumps out a super expansive Swiss one, should that alarm anything (at least the "original" promise deserves more inspection, because an honest seller probably does not know the detail himself)..... or if a seller also buy many watch parts, should that alarm anything.....etc.

Not saying people accumulating gun parts will definitely perform "forced match", honest seller should tell buyer the matching being forced or not. Or, "forced match" could even be accepted as a common practice. Or, rules in other field may not be applicable in gun domain. But, as a buyer, keeping alerted is not unnecessary, if he or she cares this matter.

[Ron Smith]

Stu,

Some of the purists are ardently against replacing mismatched parts. Others consider it "restoring" if done correctly, and with an original unaltered part from the same era. Much the same as a field armorer would do, if a part was damaged or lost. It's a matter of perception.

These same purists often see nothing wrong with having Jerry Burney repair or restore a holster to better condition.

"Force matching" is actually the act of altering a part to match a gun, to inhance it's value or to decieve a potential buyer.

It seems like a fine line, but there is a difference even though some would argue the point.

Ron

[Stu]

Fair point Ron. My comment was prompted by my recollection of numerous threads decrying the practice of replacing incorrectly numbered parts with correctly numbered ones. I don't think there is any argument that a gun with matching numbers is more valuable than a mismatch. Look at the instances of re-numbered mags to illustrate the point.

I'm more intrigued about the apparent change in attitude to the practice.

Personally, I think it's almost impossible to prove that a given gun's components have all been together since manufacture, extremely probable maybe, but with rare exceptions, impossible to prove.

The long and short of it is these darn things are getting to valuable and that will always attract people who are looking to make a commercial profit, some in a more scrupulous manner than others.

[Ron Smith]

Stu,

I'm in full agreement with you.

Ron

[lugerholsterrepair]

Ron, These same purists often see nothing wrong with having Jerry Burney repair or restore a holster to better condition.

That's because there IS nothing wrong with it! There is a Huge difference in replacing numbered parts on a pistol and holster restoration. But let me qualify that too....

Lets say you have a very rare marking on a holster, Luftwaffe or Navy. The mark is on the body. The top is trashed. You find a good top just like the trashed one and exchange it.
Are you boosting or saving a very desirable and rare holster? Some would say it is carefull, expert conservation of an important historical artifact.
In fact this type of restoration was done by the Germans themselves, evidenced by say...Reichs revolver conversions. So we know the Germans did not throw away good leather. They fixed it.
We know they fixed pistols too. They did it in a very prescribed way and unlike holsters, that way is almost impossible today because we do not have access to the right parts.
So I think if the right original part can be found it would be proper to mate it back to the pistol it came off of. Like a matching magazine.
This is extreamly unlikely but it does happen.

A different subject altogether is putting parts on pistols that don't belong there and never would or that are falsafied in order to decieve. Or stamping something on there wether it be a number or death head or whatever. This is plainely criminal and often the destruction of a Luger pistol, another tool or accoutrement.
Unfortunately, what started out as a collector often turns into a seller and the race for money is on.
Purists, as Ron says, will always detest monkeying with a pure collector pistol. I value an original pistol very highly and I have to know what I am looking at to believe it IS original down to the last detail.
This board, discussions like this, fellow knowledgable members and books. All guard against being duped by an unscrupulous booster.
Jerry Burney

[Ron Smith]

"Lets say you have a very rare marking on a holster, Luftwaffe or Navy. The mark is on the body. The top is trashed. You find a good top just like the trashed one and exchange it.
Are you boosting or saving a very desirable and rare holster?"

Jerry,

I meant no disrespect to you or anyone else. Merely my point of view. If I offended you by using your name? I apologize, and was using it as a point of referrence only.

My point is, that I see no difference in restoring a rare holster by adding new or period parts, than I do replacing a mis-matched Luger part with a period part that is correct to the period.

I do have a problem with creating or altering a part in order to boost or create a rare all matching Luger. Such as adding markings etc.

In my search for period parts, I have had offers from some souces to create or re-number a part. I have declined in every instance.

If I replace a broken or mis-matched part from a 1914 DWM with a part from a 1915 DWM. I see no different in that than replacing a holster flap from a 1916 Holster with that of a 1917 flap. That, to me is a resoration, not boosting.

Ron

[Ron Wood]

In my opinion, Ron and Jerry are on target. If the part is correct and original it constitutes restoration. A finer point might be if a correct, original part is altered to match the finish of the gun. This is pushing the limits to close to "boosting", but in some circumstances it may be acceptable.

[ToggleTop]

Another opinion:

I usually don't comment on topics like this because everyone has an opinion and the end results are zero. In my area a local TV station has a program called "That's All Messed Up." There is a moral problem with taking a part with the same number, adding it to the pistol, when the sole purpose is to increase the value of the pistol when resold. We all know it is easier to sell and to get a higher price for a Luger if all the numbers match! There is no way to control this and there never will be. It is in our human nature to make a profit fair and simple.

[Lugerdoc]

I agree with many of the points made above. It's unfortunate that we can't standardize out terms in this area. Here are the ones that I would use: "matched up" -- one or more parts interchaged with an original numbered part from the same manufacturer or the same period. Just putting a part from a different period and/or die set would not qualify. "Force matched" -- newly renumbered. "Restored" original numbers or proofs recut and/or PROFESSIONAL refinished back to the original type. "Reblued" -- no attempt to match original type metal work or finish. "unethical" --- the addition of proofs or other markings that were not there originally. "Fraud" -- attempting to sell the later as original. Lugerdoc

[Lugerdoc]

I meant to say "Fraud" --- "Fraud" as attempting to sell any of the above alterations as original. TH

[John Sabato]

A terrific explanation Lugerdoc! Thanks for your input... as a primarysource for replacement parts your opinion, and definitions, are appreciated.

Thanks.

[Lugerdoc]

Anyone interested in some correctly done Swedish HP & 480 code Walther "restorations" should check out my ad of today in the For Sale section of www.P38forum.com Thanks, TH