Simson Rework (Police)

guy sajer · 05-10-2004, 12:54 PM

I am not a student of the P-08 pistol . However , I am familiar with the more common variations .
I have come across what I think is a more uncommon variation . I will attempt to describe it .
9mm w/sear and mag safety
No chamber or toggle markings
Serial numbers are stamped in commercial locations
Crown N proofs
Front strap marked L.Lg.82.
Eagle/WaA66 right side receiver(Costanzo's book says early 1933 military)
90% Blue finish with straw parts are evenly worn . They look correctly finish matched .
1929 date Gustav Reinhardt holster marked with sunburst K with same markings as front strap of pistol stamped on the back
Frame serial number appears to have been ground & renumbered . All top half numbers last two digits match frame last 2 digits . Bottom half numbers are all the same but not same as top . (probably matched frame until renumbered ?)

Any thoughts would be appreciated . Does it seem correct ? Rare ? Value ?
I don't own it . It is going to be named in an estate to be handed down to a family member .
Thank you for your time given to a new member !

John Sabato · 05-14-2004, 11:01 AM

guy,

I just got back from a short vacation, and found that no one had entered an answer.

The L.Lg.82. marking on the front strap is a unit marking that ties the pistol to a particular military or perhaps police unit.

It might help with the identification if you can confirm whether or not the magazine safety has been "clipped" behind the trigger to make it no longer functional. If it has not been clipped, it's rarity increases because all Lugers that were in official service were ordered to disable this safety by cutting off the end that touched the trigger in use.

Dwight Gruber · 05-14-2004, 11:42 AM

L.Lg.82 would be LandjÃ?Â¤gerei (Rural Constabulary) LÃ?Â¼neborg District, weapon #82 (cf. GÃ?Â¶rtz & Bryans).

What characteristics make you think the frame number has been ground and renumbered? What is the complete frame number including letter suffix?

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 05-14-2004, 11:58 AM

Guy, this is a mis-matched gun, at some point the top and bottom halfs were mixed. The top part is a police period, i.e. in approx., 1933 the police decided to put in the sear safety and the mag safety.

But since the top part does not match the bottom part, all the collector value is gone,

My brother has a 1940 / 42 that I gave him, same problem as the one you are looking at. I have seen this several times, my guess is that some GI's were sitting around cleaning their weapons and just put parts back together. American pistols, well the top and bottom of a 1911A1 don't have matching numbers...

Ed

ken d · 05-14-2004, 05:51 PM

Ed:

I belive the Colt 1911A1's had slide and frame numbers thru 1942, The slide number is under the firing pin retainer.

Regards

Ken D

guy sajer · 05-15-2004, 10:31 AM

Thank you gentleman for the assistance .

John
Yes , it has been clipped .
Dwight
Thanks for the unit id . I'm sorry , but I didn't write the serial number down . Duh ! What was I thinking ? The frame serial number area had been gently " resurfaced " with a number restamped .But , it looks "period" . The widow lady has the gun back .
Edward
I understand about the mismatch . However , in the Costanzo book it mentions that the pistols displaying this proof were not uncommonly mismatched/renumbered as many were made from parts . I don't know this as fact , but it's in the book .Definately not disputing your info .

Thank you . If I can get a photo or more info I'll report back .

Edward Tinker · 05-15-2004, 12:32 PM

Thanks Ken, I don't remember my duty 1911A1 being numbered, but that doesn't mean much!

Guy, I don't have Costanzo, and although a good book, it has some mistakes. Generally renumbered at an arsenal is not always obvious, so the old number is taken off and new number put over it. You don't find two sets of numbers as a mismatch from the arsenal or factory (with a few exceptions).

So, the Weimar reworks I have seen and have a couple, sometimes you can see the renumber and other times they either weren't or done very well.

so, <blockquote>quote:<hr />All top half numbers last two digits match frame last 2 digits . Bottom half numbers are all the same but not same as top . (probably matched frame until renumbered ?)<hr /></blockquote>It really depends on how these numbers are, and how they appear on whether it is a mismatch or a renumbered gun...

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 05-15-2004, 02:39 PM

Pictures would be useful...

--Dwight

guy sajer · 05-15-2004, 02:50 PM

Your points are well taken . One of our employees brought it into our store for an opinion . I made an offer just in case they changed their plan about passing it on to a family member .
I'll report back if we buy it .

Thanks !

05-10-2004, 12:54 PM	#1
guy sajer User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 66 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Simson Rework (Police) I am not a student of the P-08 pistol . However , I am familiar with the more common variations . I have come across what I think is a more uncommon variation . I will attempt to describe it . 9mm w/sear and mag safety No chamber or toggle markings Serial numbers are stamped in commercial locations Crown N proofs Front strap marked L.Lg.82. Eagle/WaA66 right side receiver(Costanzo's book says early 1933 military) 90% Blue finish with straw parts are evenly worn . They look correctly finish matched . 1929 date Gustav Reinhardt holster marked with sunburst K with same markings as front strap of pistol stamped on the back Frame serial number appears to have been ground & renumbered . All top half numbers last two digits match frame last 2 digits . Bottom half numbers are all the same but not same as top . (probably matched frame until renumbered ?) Any thoughts would be appreciated . Does it seem correct ? Rare ? Value ? I don't own it . It is going to be named in an estate to be handed down to a family member . Thank you for your time given to a new member ! __________________ Mitch

05-14-2004, 11:01 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	guy, I just got back from a short vacation, and found that no one had entered an answer. The L.Lg.82. marking on the front strap is a unit marking that ties the pistol to a particular military or perhaps police unit. It might help with the identification if you can confirm whether or not the magazine safety has been "clipped" behind the trigger to make it no longer functional. If it has not been clipped, it's rarity increases because all Lugers that were in official service were ordered to disable this safety by cutting off the end that touched the trigger in use. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-14-2004, 11:58 AM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,917 Thanks: 1,997 Thanked 4,508 Times in 2,082 Posts	Guy, this is a mis-matched gun, at some point the top and bottom halfs were mixed. The top part is a police period, i.e. in approx., 1933 the police decided to put in the sear safety and the mag safety. But since the top part does not match the bottom part, all the collector value is gone, My brother has a 1940 / 42 that I gave him, same problem as the one you are looking at. I have seen this several times, my guess is that some GI's were sitting around cleaning their weapons and just put parts back together. American pistols, well the top and bottom of a 1911A1 don't have matching numbers... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-15-2004, 10:31 AM	#6
guy sajer User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 66 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you gentleman for the assistance . John Yes , it has been clipped . Dwight Thanks for the unit id . I'm sorry , but I didn't write the serial number down . Duh ! What was I thinking ? The frame serial number area had been gently " resurfaced " with a number restamped .But , it looks "period" . The widow lady has the gun back . Edward I understand about the mismatch . However , in the Costanzo book it mentions that the pistols displaying this proof were not uncommonly mismatched/renumbered as many were made from parts . I don't know this as fact , but it's in the book .Definately not disputing your info . Thank you . If I can get a photo or more info I'll report back . __________________ Mitch

05-15-2004, 12:32 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,917 Thanks: 1,997 Thanked 4,508 Times in 2,082 Posts	Thanks Ken, I don't remember my duty 1911A1 being numbered, but that doesn't mean much! Guy, I don't have Costanzo, and although a good book, it has some mistakes. Generally renumbered at an arsenal is not always obvious, so the old number is taken off and new number put over it. You don't find two sets of numbers as a mismatch from the arsenal or factory (with a few exceptions). So, the Weimar reworks I have seen and have a couple, sometimes you can see the renumber and other times they either weren't or done very well. so, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">All top half numbers last two digits match frame last 2 digits . Bottom half numbers are all the same but not same as top . (probably matched frame until renumbered ?)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">It really depends on how these numbers are, and how they appear on whether it is a mismatch or a renumbered gun... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-14-2004, 11:42 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	L.Lg.82 would be LandjÃ?Â¤gerei (Rural Constabulary) LÃ?Â¼neborg District, weapon #82 (cf. GÃ?Â¶rtz & Bryans). What characteristics make you think the frame number has been ground and renumbered? What is the complete frame number including letter suffix? --Dwight

05-14-2004, 05:51 PM	#5
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Ed: I belive the Colt 1911A1's had slide and frame numbers thru 1942, The slide number is under the firing pin retainer. Regards Ken D

05-15-2004, 02:39 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Pictures would be useful... --Dwight

05-15-2004, 02:50 PM	#9
guy sajer User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 66 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Your points are well taken . One of our employees brought it into our store for an opinion . I made an offer just in case they changed their plan about passing it on to a family member . I'll report back if we buy it . Thanks ! __________________ Mitch