GL Stamp how Rare is it???

[LugermanNH]

I was led to beleive that a luger with a GL stamp on it was VERY rare... yet I keep seeing it for sale out there...

Now I see it again on another bizarre variant on this phoenix website

http://phoenixinvestmentarms.com/00argl1.htm

is this the real deal??

Thanks,

John

[Ron Wood]

Could be. According to the write-up, documentation exists for the piece. And yes, a GL stamp is very rare.

It is an interesting Luger, but one wonders that it is not being presented as a restoration when it obviously is. I find it amazing that this Luger or other handgun of that vintage with that much wear on the grips would have 99%+ blue and straw. Also consider the careful wording of the ad..."It was customary to deliver a presentation Luger with the box and all the accessories. It is very difficult to find one that is pristine in the box new"...which would lead you to believe that the reproduction case and accessories that have been assembled were originally with the gun. The "period" cleaning rod seems more appropriate for a 1906 vintage Luger than a 1900.

Now this may be a 100% legitimate Luger, but the presentation leaves much to be desired for "truth in advertising". Is it the real deal...don't know...what do you think?

[drbuster]

Ron raises several sigificant and interesting questions regarding this piece. If it is a restoration, it was very well done. I agree that the grips have a little wear, but the blue and straw are 100%. I recently inspected another presentation 1900 piece, the deAlvear luger. It too, was 100% and the grips looked also 100%. There was no "GL" proof and the serial number was below 10,000. It did not sell on a recent Andrew Martin auction as the reserve price was not met. What is a "serious" collector to do? Whom do we trust? This Pheonix Arms 1900 is probably priced over $20000. It would probably be worth it IF original. But then how can one tell? We need documentation. I guess that's why Ralph's consignment .45 carbine hasn't sold. Just my humble opinion.

[Imperial Arms]

How interesting! A few years ago, I saw the same pistol (serial #10000) being offered by an honest European dealer, and the dealer's description made no mention of it having a connection to an Argentine president. I know for a fact that the pistol was NOT equiped with a presentation case and, furthermore, it did not have a 'GL' hallmark; it was probably added by a US dealer to enhance the rarity of the pistol. The existence of a 'GL' hallmark on a genuine Luger can add between $10k-$20k on the price as compared to a Luger which does not have a 'GL' hallmark.

Unfortunately, the collectors market is becoming more corrupt as the years pass by, and one way to protect yourself is to seek the advice and opinion of honest experts who have researched and recorded these pistols since the time they came on the market. The best advise I can give to any Luger collector is to examine as many pistols as possible, and do not believe all the 'BS' which is advertised or spoken. Many collectors love to hear about new discoveries to keep the excitement flowing, but such finds seldom occur. When a genuine pistol surfaces on the market, it should be able to speak for itself, and show the necessary 'comfort zones' after 65+ years of existence even if it was contained in a case or holster.

I hope that my advice is helpful to any collectors.

Good luck,
Albert

[ViggoG]

Ron,
The absence of the "million dollar chip" on the left grip, the quality of material, the workmanship, and questionable condition of the magazine bases, gives reason for doubt. IMO.
ViggoG

[Navy]

This 'un smells worse than a dead skunk on a hot August afternoon. Albert's observation concerning how this piece has mystically and magically acquired a provenance and a GL marking since he last examined it should send anyone except a blind man running in fear. Remember, fanaticism is doubling your efforts when you have lost sight of your goals. Spending big bucks on this piece is simply looney.

Tom A.

[drbuster]

Would love to see the "documentation" from the "Comando de Arsenales"!!!

[Navy]

Herb,

I'll bet it is as good as that stuff that was planted in the Muenchen library to fake a Hitler piece a few years back.Document forgery has gotten soooo easy now that a single piece of paper provenance is essentially no provenance.

Tom A.

[LugermanNH]

Gee Guys, before we bury this skunk I emailed the seller and he has posted some more pictures of the serial numbers. Now I'm not a metallurgist but it sure doesn't look like anyone altered the serial numbers. If we are to accept this level of expertise in alterations then any Luger must be bogus because any number on anybody's gun can be altered. I'm not sure we want to go there.
I asked about Albert's examination of this Luger in Europe. He sent me a link to a Munich Auction House that had the gun and the ad (in German) did mention it being a GL and belonging to a Julio Rocca and having a 10000 serial number. Maybe Al looked at a different gun or there are more 10000 numbered guns.

I further learned that the gun was at the Max Show in Pittsburgh and shown in Charlotte at which time several people examined the gun. He said he would link up the letter from the Argentine Government so it could be downloaded first chance he gets. Right now the gun is being examined by someone who he said is very serious collector.

Then I looked at the other GL on his site and that one is serial number 26. http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/0026GL.htm

How many GL's are there out there? I got Ralph Shattuck's screen saver and there are five on that disc; is that a different level of collecting?"

John

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi John,

I do not think anyone implied that the "10000" was monkeyed around with. Rather, the speculation was that a "GL" might have been added at some point in time.

The "GL" could be added with a custom-made stamp, or maybe a very old rear link from a worn-out GL luger was just transferred to this gun. Taking a commercial 10000 numbered gun into the high dollar world of a "GL" made gun...

But I, vote, that this gun was certainly refinished...from the photos provided...

Regards,

Pete...

[Ron Wood]

OK, here we go again. Serial number 26 was part of the Swiss trials of 1899, was subsequently altered with a production style trigger, rear toggle link and sight and submitted for the British trials in October of 1900. It has a hand stamped/engraved Swiss cross over the chamber, standard 120mm (4.75") barrel, bordered grips, is not GL marked, and the last time I heard it was residing in the MoD Pattern Room. Check it out at Albert's website British Serial Number 26. This is a very well known and documented serial number with impeccable provenance. Now what?

[drbuster]

This #26 has no borders on the grips, no Swiss Cross, no strawed sear bar and has the "GL" logo. How many #26's are there (sic!)? Pardon my ignorance, Ron, but what and where is the MoD Pattern Room?

[Ron Wood]

In Nottingham in Jolly Old England. (Actually, I think it may have been relocated to another location in England, but I have forgotten where). MoD is Ministry of Defense.

As to "how many #26's are there"...one that I know of that has unquestionable authenticity.

[drbuster]

Thanks, Ron. What is one to think now? I hope more of our learned and experienced Forum members join this discussion thread. There's a great deal at stake here.

[Pete Ebbink]

Albert Beliard has this British early 1900 on his web site...

http://imperialarms.home.att.net/



Does anyone know its serial number ?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[drbuster]

Pete, I thought Ron said it was #26!

[Pete Ebbink]

Sorry...I missed Ron's reference to Albert's web site...

Regards,

Pete...

[Ron Wood]

Pete,
Do a "mouse over" on the picture (on Albert's website just run the cursor over the picture without clicking and it will give you the caption of the picture) It is serial number 26, and I believe it was photographed by Albert at the Pattern Room.

[Imperial Arms]

Bing, Bing, - Round 3!!

Hey Ron, I thought you would do all the explaining, but I shall add a few comments and let you carry on!

Firstly, I would like to point out a few details regarding the 1900 British Test Luger serial #26:

1) It has a radius toggle link;
2) It has TWO recoil retainer springs, one clockwise and the other anti-clockwise;
3) It is numbered in the early style with no 'GL';
4) It has an hand engraved Swiss cross on the chamber;
5) It has a standard 1900 trigger, not the thin type of the 1899 model;

Based on various articles which have been written, it is assumed that the serial range of these early pistols went up to 40, and maybe slightly higher (includes the Swiss, Dutch and British Trail pistols). This makes me wonder from where the other serial #26 surfaced unless it was hallmarked 'GL' using a 1900 Commercial pistol.

In order for a Luger to be hallmarked 'GL', it would require that the pistol be an experimental/test pistol; a pistol with a special feature; or a presentation - I do not notice anything special on the other serial #26 which justifies a 'GL'. Lastly, the same Luger has a relieved grip (look at the magazine) which would be very suspicious on a pistol with such a low serial number - I rest my case.

Beware,
Albert

[Ron Wood]

Thank you, I stand slightly corrected Albert. I only mentioned the rear toggle link, but obviously the forward toggle link having the required matching radius was replaced as well. It has two FIRING PIN springs, one clockwise and the other anti-clockwise. Didn't mention that since it can't be seen in the photographs. I think I touched on the rest of the details.

I also didn't mention that these very early pre-production Lugers have the barrel serial number running lengthwise parallel to the bore. The GL marked #26 has the barrel serial number placement in the conventional manner. It is the unconventional length of this barrel that is the special feature that might possibly justify a GL marking. But Georg giving a 1900 a two digit serial number that had already been used is a bit unsettling. It just doesn't fit.

The relieved frame isn't a solid indicator since most of the early unrelieved frames were later modified to accept the high button mag. That's why it is so hard to find an unrelieved frame Luger these days.

Isn't it neat how these threads can turn into "Early Lugers 101". Education is what it is all about. Hopefully it helps awareness.