I've "seen the Elephant"

George Anderson · 09-30-2005, 09:32 PM

Been in Charlotte at the MAX Show and have seen the "von Tirpitz 1902 Prototype Luger", I didn't even bother to ask to examine it; some things look better on the internet than in real life.

lugerholsterrepair · 09-30-2005, 10:31 PM

George, Really? Did it look so bad in person you didn't think it was worth an inspection? Did anyone you know examine it and have an opinion? Enquiring minds want to know...Jerry Burney

Big Norm · 10-01-2005, 12:26 AM

George,
is his gun on the internet or something? What is the story on this weapon?
Big Norm

Pete Ebbink · 10-01-2005, 02:25 AM

Norm,

The AvT "Navy" luger was discussed on the LF in the Early Luger section, in a thread titled "Prototype Dies", started by member "surlydog" (aka Harry Atkins) around the 9-16-05 time frame. High-end photos of the AvT were posted by Harry in this discussion thread.

The discussion had previously started on Jan Still's Gun Boards in the Navy section, over there...but Harry Atkins decided to stop participating there and moved his discussion here to the LF...

Here is a link to the other discussion over at Jan's place :

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4938

Harry had gotten together with Charlie Kenyon in person with the AvT and Kenyon's assessment was not a positive one.

George Anderson · 10-01-2005, 10:25 PM

Boys, a collector I know from Alaska looked at it through the glass only, as did I, shrugged, chuckled and walked away. Tom Etowski examined it in detail and told me he thought it was a fake and I understand that Ralph Shattuck looked at it and told the owner that it was a great collection of parts. I got this latter story second hand. Someone there told me that Kenyon said it was in the Chilean serial number range (?).

My overriding impression was that the guy who had the sense of "style", form and balance to design and build the model 1900 Parabellum was not the person responsible for the muzzelring on this pistol.

drbuster · 10-02-2005, 01:23 AM

I was under the impression, in reading the threads on this piece, that the "GL" monogram on the back of the frame was double stamped. If this is so, why haven't we Forum folks made more of a big deal about this. Does any rational Luger collector think that Georg Luger would let such a landmark presentation piece leave his manufactory with such a "boo boo"? I don't think so.

drbuster · 10-02-2005, 02:43 PM

Just wondering whether the booster or fabricator of this and other pieces, especially Navies, is reading all these posts, chuckles to himself, or, on the other hand, gets pangs of angst, as these are likely fraudulent acts perpetrated on innocent, albeit ignorant, victims. Do revelations, such as the exposure of the AvT "project" give such Waffenfabrikators pause in making more of these things, or does it motivate him to get back into the garage or shop. I wonder whether any of our legal oriented members have any opinions as to the liability incurred here.

policeluger · 10-02-2005, 07:29 PM

Tac, charred Luger grip panels are the oldest scam in faked guns, anyone with a simple propane torch can replicate them.

Edward Tinker · 10-02-2005, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tacfoley
Sad to say, the underlying tone of cynicism I detect on this subject leads me to suspect that you would all, to a man, tend to view my matched pair of George Washington P08's, presented to him by Ignatz Maximilian Graf von Loeffelgeier as a mark of admiration, might also be - and let's be charitable about this - somewhat less than genuine.

That having been noted, I reluctantly forbear from mentioning Ben Franklin's own AE, complete with suitably charred grip plates, as befits a man who played with lightning, also in my possession these many years...

tac

I find this hard to believe, why would Ben Franklin have been holding his lugger when lightening hunting?

drbuster · 10-02-2005, 08:56 PM

Ed, It's simple. Ben might want to shoot holes in his kite if he feared the wind was going to take it into a tall tree!

Edward Tinker · 10-02-2005, 09:07 PM

I hope Dorothy wasn't hanging onto the kite

Ron Smith · 10-02-2005, 09:10 PM

Tac,

I knew Ben Franklin. Ben Franklin was friend of mine. And believe me when I say that Ben wouldn't have taken a chance of damaging his Lugers. All of which were nickle plated presentation models with Ajax pearlite grips.

I own one and Ed has the other two. There are only 3 known, so yours has to be boosted. Sorry...

Ron

Edward Tinker · 10-03-2005, 01:03 PM

ahhh Milhouse, then you must have gotten a real one!

Jan C Still · 10-06-2005, 09:23 PM

RE: prototype gold inlayed presentation Navy Luger

Attempts to contact Harry (Sept. 10) concerning the examination of this gold inlayed presentation Luger by Charles Kenyon have gone unanswered. Forum members examined the photographs of this Luger and spent some time posting their observations. In general, the observations were keen and well thought out. However, they were skeptical so Harry posted his gold inlayed presentation Luger on the other Forum. In most cases, the results were similar. The quality of these observations and replies does great credit to the collectors on both Forums.

I have discussed this Luger in detail with a collector expert that did a hands on examination. He asked that our discussion be kept off record. While I cannot reveal this information, I am at liberty to discuss my opinion of the pistol based on examination of the photographs and the observations of fellow collectors presented on both this and the Luger Forum. Most of the Forum collectors found irregularities in the pistol. Based on my own observations of the photographs and comments by fellow collectors , it is safe to estimate that this Luger is not original and correct

If the Luger is a fake, surely the story of its acquisition by a Army demo man retrieving it from the safe of an estate in Germany is questionable.

Harry, the members of both Forums deserve the courtesy of a detailed reply. Who is the source of this Luger???(What ever happened to your $500 bet?)
Jan

Ron Smith · 10-07-2005, 11:18 AM

Very well put Jan.

Harry,

We have all been taken advantage of, at one time or another. We have all suffered some damaged egos. It comes with the territory. Anyone who collects guns and says otherwise, isn't in touch with reality. It's certainly a fact, that I have, in the 40 some odd years of gun trading.

Regards, Ron

Navy · 10-07-2005, 12:54 PM

All,

Again the old truism, "The tuition at Luger U. is steep."

Tom A

Big Norm · 10-12-2005, 03:50 AM

Pete,
thanks for posting a referrence to the AtV navy Luger. But I just have to add something that I may have said many times before. I have been reading and posting on this forum for a long time and the wisdom of Ron Wood never ceases to amaze me. As soon as I finish this post, I am going to whip out my Borchardt and look at the ring on the front of that barrel and take a close look at it. Ron put so much information in that post that it should be required reading on this forum.
Big Norm

Edward Tinker · 10-12-2005, 10:45 AM

big norm, where is this posting by Ron Wood? It isn't in this posting, so ya, gots to put a link to tell everyone where it is...

Pete Ebbink · 10-12-2005, 12:29 PM

It is in the "Early Luger" section, under the discussion thread titled "Prototype Dies"...

09-30-2005, 09:32 PM	#1
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	I've "seen the Elephant" Been in Charlotte at the MAX Show and have seen the "von Tirpitz 1902 Prototype Luger", I didn't even bother to ask to examine it; some things look better on the internet than in real life.

09-30-2005, 10:31 PM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,928 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	George, Really? Did it look so bad in person you didn't think it was worth an inspection? Did anyone you know examine it and have an opinion? Enquiring minds want to know...Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-02-2005, 09:10 PM	#12
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Tac, I knew Ben Franklin. Ben Franklin was friend of mine. And believe me when I say that Ben wouldn't have taken a chance of damaging his Lugers. All of which were nickle plated presentation models with Ajax pearlite grips. I own one and Ed has the other two. There are only 3 known, so yours has to be boosted. Sorry... Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-03-2005, 01:03 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,930 Thanks: 2,030 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	ahhh Milhouse, then you must have gotten a real one! __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-07-2005, 11:18 AM	#15
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Very well put Jan. Harry, We have all been taken advantage of, at one time or another. We have all suffered some damaged egos. It comes with the territory. Anyone who collects guns and says otherwise, isn't in touch with reality. It's certainly a fact, that I have, in the 40 some odd years of gun trading. Regards, Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

10-01-2005, 12:26 AM	#3
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	George, is his gun on the internet or something? What is the story on this weapon? Big Norm

10-01-2005, 02:25 AM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Norm, The AvT "Navy" luger was discussed on the LF in the Early Luger section, in a thread titled "Prototype Dies", started by member "surlydog" (aka Harry Atkins) around the 9-16-05 time frame. High-end photos of the AvT were posted by Harry in this discussion thread. The discussion had previously started on Jan Still's Gun Boards in the Navy section, over there...but Harry Atkins decided to stop participating there and moved his discussion here to the LF... Here is a link to the other discussion over at Jan's place : http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4938 Harry had gotten together with Charlie Kenyon in person with the AvT and Kenyon's assessment was not a positive one.

10-01-2005, 10:25 PM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	Boys, a collector I know from Alaska looked at it through the glass only, as did I, shrugged, chuckled and walked away. Tom Etowski examined it in detail and told me he thought it was a fake and I understand that Ralph Shattuck looked at it and told the owner that it was a great collection of parts. I got this latter story second hand. Someone there told me that Kenyon said it was in the Chilean serial number range (?). My overriding impression was that the guy who had the sense of "style", form and balance to design and build the model 1900 Parabellum was not the person responsible for the muzzelring on this pistol.

10-02-2005, 01:23 AM	#6
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	I was under the impression, in reading the threads on this piece, that the "GL" monogram on the back of the frame was double stamped. If this is so, why haven't we Forum folks made more of a big deal about this. Does any rational Luger collector think that Georg Luger would let such a landmark presentation piece leave his manufactory with such a "boo boo"? I don't think so.

10-02-2005, 02:43 PM	#7
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Just wondering whether the booster or fabricator of this and other pieces, especially Navies, is reading all these posts, chuckles to himself, or, on the other hand, gets pangs of angst, as these are likely fraudulent acts perpetrated on innocent, albeit ignorant, victims. Do revelations, such as the exposure of the AvT "project" give such Waffenfabrikators pause in making more of these things, or does it motivate him to get back into the garage or shop. I wonder whether any of our legal oriented members have any opinions as to the liability incurred here.

10-02-2005, 07:29 PM	#8
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Tac, charred Luger grip panels are the oldest scam in faked guns, anyone with a simple propane torch can replicate them.

10-02-2005, 08:56 PM	#10
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Ed, It's simple. Ben might want to shoot holes in his kite if he feared the wind was going to take it into a tall tree!

10-02-2005, 09:07 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,930 Thanks: 2,030 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	I hope Dorothy wasn't hanging onto the kite

10-06-2005, 09:23 PM	#14
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	RE: prototype gold inlayed presentation Navy Luger Attempts to contact Harry (Sept. 10) concerning the examination of this gold inlayed presentation Luger by Charles Kenyon have gone unanswered. Forum members examined the photographs of this Luger and spent some time posting their observations. In general, the observations were keen and well thought out. However, they were skeptical so Harry posted his gold inlayed presentation Luger on the other Forum. In most cases, the results were similar. The quality of these observations and replies does great credit to the collectors on both Forums. I have discussed this Luger in detail with a collector expert that did a hands on examination. He asked that our discussion be kept off record. While I cannot reveal this information, I am at liberty to discuss my opinion of the pistol based on examination of the photographs and the observations of fellow collectors presented on both this and the Luger Forum. Most of the Forum collectors found irregularities in the pistol. Based on my own observations of the photographs and comments by fellow collectors , it is safe to estimate that this Luger is not original and correct If the Luger is a fake, surely the story of its acquisition by a Army demo man retrieving it from the safe of an estate in Germany is questionable. Harry, the members of both Forums deserve the courtesy of a detailed reply. Who is the source of this Luger???(What ever happened to your $500 bet?) Jan

10-07-2005, 12:54 PM	#16
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	All, Again the old truism, "The tuition at Luger U. is steep." Tom A

10-12-2005, 03:50 AM	#17
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Pete, thanks for posting a referrence to the AtV navy Luger. But I just have to add something that I may have said many times before. I have been reading and posting on this forum for a long time and the wisdom of Ron Wood never ceases to amaze me. As soon as I finish this post, I am going to whip out my Borchardt and look at the ring on the front of that barrel and take a close look at it. Ron put so much information in that post that it should be required reading on this forum. Big Norm

10-12-2005, 10:45 AM	#18
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,930 Thanks: 2,030 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	big norm, where is this posting by Ron Wood? It isn't in this posting, so ya, gots to put a link to tell everyone where it is...

10-12-2005, 12:29 PM	#19
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	It is in the "Early Luger" section, under the discussion thread titled "Prototype Dies"...