New byf 41

RWS · 09-09-2008, 07:19 AM

Hi you all, it was great to find your forum, it gives me the possibility to share with you my new P08 purchased, but not paid yet. I want you to help me to value it.

It came from an officer, a doctor, of the Division Azul, the spanish fascist division sent to Russia to help nazis in their fight against comunism. They were spanish soldiers, after the civil war, and their equipment was german (weapons, uniforms, ....)

This P08 is new, I guess never fired except for factory tests. The grooves are intact and still blued inside the barrel. All parts have matching numbers and the holster has also never been worn. It is complete with its tool and a pair pair identical mags, full loaded both, one with civil RWS ammo and another with "ch 42" military rounds. Impressing the power of their sprins after 65 years loaded.

I don't know how to redimension the photos, so I beg you pardon Mr. Sabato, but I have to post them from a website. The RWS ammo box is from my collection.

Before cleaning:

After:

Please feel free to post your comments and expected value, I have to pay for it.

Thanks in advance.

the gunman · 09-09-2008, 09:16 AM

" Very Very Nice Rig " Congratulations on your find. Where are you.?

RWS · 09-09-2008, 09:30 AM

Thank you gunman, I am in Europe, so the value you could provide me is just for an orientative purpose, here in Europe these P08 are scarce, you brought home all you finded after the WWII, though could be find with a little help and time.

Vlim · 09-09-2008, 09:31 AM

Have to agree, stunning rig.

'ch' is the wartime code for FN (Fabrique Nationale) in (then) occupied Belgium.

The value depends on the location. These rigs are more expensive in the US then they are at the European continent, although this is changing rapidly. If a rig in this shape came to auction, I'd hold my breath....

This gun could do 2000 - 2500 euros easily imho.

Steinar · 09-09-2008, 09:31 AM

It sure is nice.. And welcome to the forum!
But you might want to keep that payment on hold for a while RWS.. did you buy it as 'never used' ? Sure it's not reblued?

Steinar · 09-09-2008, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RWS
Thank you gunman, I am in Europe, so the value you could provide me is just for an orientative purpose, here in Europe these P08 are scarce, you brought home all you finded after the WWII, though could be find with a little help and time.

scarce.. well that depends on where in Europe you are, your info does not say.

"over here" where I live, there is a lot more Lugers that people that is allowed to buy them, making the value for a rig like yours about 500EUR / 700USD. If deactivated it will be somewhat more (sadly enough..)

RWS · 09-09-2008, 09:47 AM

Quote:

The value depends on the location. These rigs are more expensive in the US then they are at the European continent, although this is changing rapidly

Thanks Van Vlimmeren, maybe you are right but on those unoccupied countries during the war are very difficoult to find. 2000 Euro?, WOW, I have not enough money!!! I asked shooting fellows about its value and some of them who had bought P08 told me about 1500 but in used/mint condition.

Quote:

did you buy it as 'never used' ? Sure it's not reblued?

I have not bought it yet, at least i did not pay for it, the propietary told me the history of it, this point added to my knowledge of weapons tell me it has never been fired, and it is not reblued. I took apart the old grease and I could see the still blued bolt head, rails, feeding ramp, .... Sure it is not reblued.

Please feel free to ask for detailed photos.

Steinar · 09-09-2008, 10:00 AM

Looks like me and Mr Van Vlimmeren has a gap of value estimate like size of Grand Canyon

It's all about where it's located, and how the market is in that perticular country..

RWS; is the muzzle blued?

Vlim · 09-09-2008, 10:21 AM

Well, he doesnt, really

Of course it depends on the location, but generally speaking:

Magazines are worth say 100 a piece,
The holster alone is worth some 250 at least, not to mention the loading tool.

So the holster + tools + mags together are worth some 500 alone (Euro).
A mint byf41 at some 1500 + the additional kit can easily raise at least 2000 Euros on the right spot on the European marketplace and at the right auction much more.

RWS, if you can get it for less than the price I mentioned, you are paying a very good price! If you get it for Steinars price (700-ish) you got the deal of the century. It's important to separate the shooters from the collectors.

This rig is in the area of high-end collector guns, not shooting material.

John Sabato · 09-09-2008, 10:25 AM

RWS,

You can reduce the size of your photograph images by using the Microsoft Office Picture Manager, or even Microsoft Paint... then you can upload them to the Lugerforum server so that they will not disappear for a very long time.

RWS · 09-09-2008, 10:34 AM

Yes Morgan, blued with little traces of copper on the grooves. It is dificult fo take pictures, almost with my camera, but look at the bolt head and the ramp. I hope my english would be good enough for your understanding.

I thought about 1500 Euro, 1500 for a piece I cannot shoot, and I like to fire my weapons, would I be getting crazy?

Vlim · 09-09-2008, 10:42 AM

As I said, if you get it for 1500, you got a very, very good deal.

There is always the chance of small parts breaking during firing, and this gun is just in too nice a shape to take that chance. Break a numbered part and your 2000 Euro gun will turn into a 500 Euro shooter in one 'bang'.

If you want a luger you can shoot, don't buy this one. It's just in too nice a state to be used for shooting. You can get shooter grade lugers for prices ranging from 250 Euros upwards.

Is the gun still located in Spain? If so, you could check the Spanish dealers.

I'd like to see a photo of the holster back side if possible. The back always shows more than the front

RWS · 09-09-2008, 11:02 AM

That's what I think, but it's like living with a vestal virgin of the Imperial Roma .... Maybe in the Netherlands is easier to find P08s but here is quite difficult. In few months EU new weapons rules will allow to sell/buy freely between countries, then I will ask you for one of these of 250 Euros, until then I will not shoot it.

Thanks Mr. Sabato, here is a left side photo resized:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...7152_copy1.jpg

RWS · 09-09-2008, 11:10 AM

John Sabato · 09-09-2008, 11:11 AM

Now you just need to use the correct image tags to make it display... use "img" inside the brackets instead of "url"

Vlim · 09-09-2008, 11:13 AM

Haha, P08's are not growing on trees here, either.

Since I enjoy shooting lugers, I carefully selected guns that are nice, but not perfect, so I get to enjoy shooting them without the risk of destroying a high-end collector piece.

For 250 Euros you buy a mismatched shootable VoPo that will need a bit of work to sort it out.

Frankonia used to sell refurbished P08s for around 700 Euros a few years ago. These were in like-new condition, but reworked and reblued.

Collectible lugers will tip over the 1000 Euro border pretty quickly nowadays, the stressed prices in the USA and the low dollar exchange rate have their effect on the European market as well.

ps: The holster looks perfectly allright to me.

Anyway, if you decide to shoot it, don't use the magazines that came with it. These bakelite bottoms can be very brittle due to age and shatter during use. Also, carefully remove the grips and fit 'shooting grips'. The corners just above the magazine release button and at the safety catch can break off during shooting, possibly ruining a matching pair of grips.

Get a new Italian made Mec-Gar magazine instead, and a set of plastic VoPo grips or repro wooden grips (Nill Grips for example) for shooting.

RWS · 09-09-2008, 11:35 AM

No, I won't shoot it, it would be as hard as give up smoking but I won't. I will keep my few boxes of original 1934 RWS ammo as a part of the rig if I have to sell it in the future.

Some years ago I bought a K98, bcd 43, completely new. After several shots the stock was broken. I get another one from a wonderful guy in Norway, all marked, but now it's mismatched. I won't commit the same mistake although my kar is the one I fire on competitions and gives me excellent results.

Went Blakely · 09-09-2008, 11:38 AM

Dang that is a nice rig, i wouldn't want to shoot that either

WG dog · 09-10-2008, 08:32 AM

Looked up Division Azul to learn a bit of history. Hope no one minds a link or two....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division

http://www.wwiihistorymagazine.com/2...l-insight.html

That's a nice pistol!

byf43 · 09-24-2008, 07:38 AM

RWS, what a beautiful set! Lovely looking. A top condition matching numbers byf41 would cost at least 1350 Euro here. With 2 mags and that holster I'd guess a price of at least 1800 Euro maybe more. But depending on who you ask it can vary a lot.

09-09-2008, 07:19 AM	#1
RWS User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Europe Posts: 34 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	New byf 41 Hi you all, it was great to find your forum, it gives me the possibility to share with you my new P08 purchased, but not paid yet. I want you to help me to value it. It came from an officer, a doctor, of the Division Azul, the spanish fascist division sent to Russia to help nazis in their fight against comunism. They were spanish soldiers, after the civil war, and their equipment was german (weapons, uniforms, ....) This P08 is new, I guess never fired except for factory tests. The grooves are intact and still blued inside the barrel. All parts have matching numbers and the holster has also never been worn. It is complete with its tool and a pair pair identical mags, full loaded both, one with civil RWS ammo and another with "ch 42" military rounds. Impressing the power of their sprins after 65 years loaded. I don't know how to redimension the photos, so I beg you pardon Mr. Sabato, but I have to post them from a website. The RWS ammo box is from my collection. Before cleaning: After: Please feel free to post your comments and expected value, I have to pay for it. Thanks in advance.

09-09-2008, 09:31 AM	#5
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	It sure is nice.. And welcome to the forum! But you might want to keep that payment on hold for a while RWS.. did you buy it as 'never used' ? Sure it's not reblued? __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

09-09-2008, 10:00 AM	#8
Steinar User Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 1,538 Thanks: 18 Thanked 36 Times in 21 Posts	Looks like me and Mr Van Vlimmeren has a gap of value estimate like size of Grand Canyon It's all about where it's located, and how the market is in that perticular country.. RWS; is the muzzle blued? __________________ Previously known as Morgan Kane

09-09-2008, 10:25 AM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	RWS, You can reduce the size of your photograph images by using the Microsoft Office Picture Manager, or even Microsoft Paint... then you can upload them to the Lugerforum server so that they will not disappear for a very long time. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-09-2008, 11:11 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Now you just need to use the correct image tags to make it display... use "img" inside the brackets instead of "url" __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-09-2008, 09:16 AM	#2
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	" Very Very Nice Rig " Congratulations on your find. Where are you.?

09-09-2008, 09:30 AM	#3
RWS User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Europe Posts: 34 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Thank you gunman, I am in Europe, so the value you could provide me is just for an orientative purpose, here in Europe these P08 are scarce, you brought home all you finded after the WWII, though could be find with a little help and time.

09-09-2008, 09:31 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Have to agree, stunning rig. 'ch' is the wartime code for FN (Fabrique Nationale) in (then) occupied Belgium. The value depends on the location. These rigs are more expensive in the US then they are at the European continent, although this is changing rapidly. If a rig in this shape came to auction, I'd hold my breath.... This gun could do 2000 - 2500 euros easily imho.

09-09-2008, 10:21 AM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Well, he doesnt, really Of course it depends on the location, but generally speaking: Magazines are worth say 100 a piece, The holster alone is worth some 250 at least, not to mention the loading tool. So the holster + tools + mags together are worth some 500 alone (Euro). A mint byf41 at some 1500 + the additional kit can easily raise at least 2000 Euros on the right spot on the European marketplace and at the right auction much more. RWS, if you can get it for less than the price I mentioned, you are paying a very good price! If you get it for Steinars price (700-ish) you got the deal of the century. It's important to separate the shooters from the collectors. This rig is in the area of high-end collector guns, not shooting material.

09-09-2008, 10:34 AM	#11
RWS User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Europe Posts: 34 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Yes Morgan, blued with little traces of copper on the grooves. It is dificult fo take pictures, almost with my camera, but look at the bolt head and the ramp. I hope my english would be good enough for your understanding. I thought about 1500 Euro, 1500 for a piece I cannot shoot, and I like to fire my weapons, would I be getting crazy?

09-09-2008, 10:42 AM	#12
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	As I said, if you get it for 1500, you got a very, very good deal. There is always the chance of small parts breaking during firing, and this gun is just in too nice a shape to take that chance. Break a numbered part and your 2000 Euro gun will turn into a 500 Euro shooter in one 'bang'. If you want a luger you can shoot, don't buy this one. It's just in too nice a state to be used for shooting. You can get shooter grade lugers for prices ranging from 250 Euros upwards. Is the gun still located in Spain? If so, you could check the Spanish dealers. I'd like to see a photo of the holster back side if possible. The back always shows more than the front

09-09-2008, 11:02 AM	#13
RWS User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Europe Posts: 34 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	That's what I think, but it's like living with a vestal virgin of the Imperial Roma .... Maybe in the Netherlands is easier to find P08s but here is quite difficult. In few months EU new weapons rules will allow to sell/buy freely between countries, then I will ask you for one of these of 250 Euros, until then I will not shoot it. Thanks Mr. Sabato, here is a left side photo resized: http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload...7152_copy1.jpg

09-09-2008, 11:10 AM	#14
RWS User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Europe Posts: 34 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

09-09-2008, 11:13 AM	#16
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Haha, P08's are not growing on trees here, either. Since I enjoy shooting lugers, I carefully selected guns that are nice, but not perfect, so I get to enjoy shooting them without the risk of destroying a high-end collector piece. For 250 Euros you buy a mismatched shootable VoPo that will need a bit of work to sort it out. Frankonia used to sell refurbished P08s for around 700 Euros a few years ago. These were in like-new condition, but reworked and reblued. Collectible lugers will tip over the 1000 Euro border pretty quickly nowadays, the stressed prices in the USA and the low dollar exchange rate have their effect on the European market as well. ps: The holster looks perfectly allright to me. Anyway, if you decide to shoot it, don't use the magazines that came with it. These bakelite bottoms can be very brittle due to age and shatter during use. Also, carefully remove the grips and fit 'shooting grips'. The corners just above the magazine release button and at the safety catch can break off during shooting, possibly ruining a matching pair of grips. Get a new Italian made Mec-Gar magazine instead, and a set of plastic VoPo grips or repro wooden grips (Nill Grips for example) for shooting.

09-09-2008, 11:35 AM	#17
RWS User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Europe Posts: 34 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	No, I won't shoot it, it would be as hard as give up smoking but I won't. I will keep my few boxes of original 1934 RWS ammo as a part of the rig if I have to sell it in the future. Some years ago I bought a K98, bcd 43, completely new. After several shots the stock was broken. I get another one from a wonderful guy in Norway, all marked, but now it's mismatched. I won't commit the same mistake although my kar is the one I fire on competitions and gives me excellent results.

09-09-2008, 11:38 AM	#18
Went Blakely User Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 231 Thanks: 4 Thanked 8 Times in 6 Posts	Dang that is a nice rig, i wouldn't want to shoot that either __________________ Went Blakely

09-10-2008, 08:32 AM	#19
WG dog Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 142 Thanks: 1,282 Thanked 37 Times in 24 Posts	Looked up Division Azul to learn a bit of history. Hope no one minds a link or two.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Division http://www.wwiihistorymagazine.com/2...l-insight.html That's a nice pistol!

09-24-2008, 07:38 AM	#20
byf43 User Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 69 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	RWS, what a beautiful set! Lovely looking. A top condition matching numbers byf41 would cost at least 1350 Euro here. With 2 mags and that holster I'd guess a price of at least 1800 Euro maybe more. But depending on who you ask it can vary a lot.