Very Early 1900 Swiss Luger...

Pete Ebbink · 10-12-2003, 08:47 PM

Got a chance to see a very early 1900 Swiss-DWM luger about a week ago during my travels.

It is serial # 139, has the 1st. type of thumb safety, has the strawed DWM extractor, and has only the swiss cross on the left side frame and on the barrel (i.e. no BUG proofs). It also did not have the Vogelsang proof mark...which I thought odd...

It came with a Swiss insert magazine with the early style, thin follower button and the frame was not cut/relieved for the magazine groove.

The gun did not have a P-date release stamping and the finish appeared to be a very-excellent arsenal refinish. The polished safety area was very well defined, radiused, and crisp. Strawed parts looked very bright as well.

Not having seem very many early Swiss lugers in person, I thought I would ask for opinions here...

Are early Swiss lugers known to not have the Vogelsang stamping ?

Unfortunately, this gun will probably stay with its present owner for the next 20 years or so. But I did volunteer to get some more opinions about this piece from the LF and will forward any info. to the Owner...who is not "wired"...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 10-13-2003, 02:17 AM

Pete,

Swiss Ordonnanzpistole Modell 1900 serial number 01 (the first Swiss military Luger) in the Henk Visser collection is configured as the Luger you described. Christian Reinhart in Ã¢??Pistolen und Revolver der SchweizÃ¢?Â shows Ordonnanzpistole #465 marked the same way. I have #109 with unrelieved frame and flat button mag also in the same configuration. Based on the Reinhart example it would appear that perhaps as many as 500 of the initial Swiss military pieces did not bear the Vogelsang inspection mark, and the number may even be higher. The #139 you observed is as right as rain, and being unaltered, i.e. unrelieved frame, it is worth a whole bunch of $$.

Pete Ebbink · 10-13-2003, 08:11 PM

Hello Ron,

Thanks so much for the great follow-up info. You are such a storehouse of early luger info.!!!

I had forgotten that I actually do have the C. Reinhart book...and I do see that # 465 on page 93.

This is/such an elegantly designed luger...especially that 1st. variation thumb safety lever. I understand now your focus and specialization of your collection to "early" lugers only...after the model 1900, all others just seem like "mere" impersonations...

I will forward a copy of this page to the Owner...(who lives somewhere between No. California and Cambridge, MA...)

Any guess to current value on this gun ? $ 3-4K, $ 4-5K, $ 6-7K ?...remembering it might be a Bern rework...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Ron Wood · 10-13-2003, 08:45 PM

If you find a very early Swiss Luger that is in excellent condition, there is a very high probability that it is a Bern rework. The Swiss took pride in their weapons and maintained their Lugers in a high state of condition. They had no problem with periodic maintenance and refurbishment. In my opinion, this is just part of collecting early Swiss, kind of like how a Dutch arsenal rework does not devalue an M11 or KOL all that much, they are just too hard to find. You usually can tell a Bern refurb from a gunsmith restoration. Granted, it is still more desirable to find and own an untouched gun, but I would still think that #139 would command a price in excess of your high range of $6-7K.

Pete Ebbink · 09-30-2004, 07:45 PM

Just got a chance to see two early M1900 Swiss lugers in person at the Simspon LTD shop.

Serial # 555 was without the V/+ stamping, but serial # 604 did have the V/+ stamping. So the range of numbers at which Voglesang started stamping his mark gets a bit more narrow...

Oh...I bought # 555...more on that in a few days...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Dwight Gruber · 10-01-2004, 03:21 AM

Ron and Pete,

I have been under the impression that the early Swiss guns without the V/+ stamp were in the commercial serial# series, rather than the military contract. Am I misinformed? If the first 500 or so military contract guns did not have the Vogelsgang stamp...how might one differentiate from the Commercial guns??

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 10-01-2004, 04:04 PM

The commercial guns will have BUG proofs, while the military contract pieces will bear only the Swiss Federal Cross proofs.

Pete Ebbink · 10-01-2004, 04:54 PM

Hi Dwight,

I have been trying to see early military Swiss M1900 lugers in person to see when Major Voglesang acutally started stamping his V/+ on the left side of the receiver. Most authors agree it occured around serial # 500 or so...just looking to pin-point a tighter cut-over.

The more interesting question is why Voglesang did not starting with production luger # 1...as he was involved in the stamping of the M1882 revolvers in the early 1900's...

Here is a photo of serial # 555...from the Simpson web site...I will post more photos next week as time and my travels allow.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

R.Allara · 10-17-2004, 04:43 PM

HiPete,
I've seen the Swiss mod. 1900 serial #604 and serial #629. Both have the Vogelsang's mark

Pete Ebbink · 10-17-2004, 06:59 PM

Hello Roberto,

Thanks for your info.

I have posted better photos of my "new" M1900 Swiss luger, serial # 555, in another discussion thread...let me know what you think about this luger.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Navy · 10-17-2004, 08:58 PM

Hi Pete,

Not a bad lookin' shooter.
I say that with lots of tongue in cheek...great find! Congrats,
Tom A.

Dan Metz · 01-24-2005, 12:29 PM

I own a modest collection of early Swiss Lugers. My s/n 14 does not have a Vogelsang proof on the left side, but my s/n 90 does. My s/n 346 has only a Swiss cross. All three of these guns have the earliest type safety. My s/n 1781 does in fact have a Vogelsang proof on the left side (type 2 safety), as do my s/n 2532 (type 3 safety) and s/n 4110 (wide trigger). Hope this helps.

Dan M.

John Sabato · 01-24-2005, 01:11 PM

Welcome to the Lugerforum Dan...

Ron Wood · 01-24-2005, 02:55 PM

Dan,

Saying you Ã¢??own a modest collection of early Swiss LugersÃ¢?Â is somewhat akin to saying that the Louvre owns a modest collection of Rembrandts. Early Lugers are my chief interest, and you have accumulated some great examples.

My admiration for your guns aside, I wonder if I might ask a couple of questions? Do any (or all) of your three earliest pieces still have unrelieved frames? Also, your #90 is the first example under approximately serial number 600 that I have heard of with VogelsangÃ¢??s mark. Have you observed any others?

I join with John in welcoming you to this merry little band of Luger nuts.

Pete Ebbink · 04-25-2005, 08:58 PM

Has anyone had luck getting a hold of Dan Metz...?

I would really like to get photos of his # 90 without the Voglesang stampings...

This really pushes back Col. Vogelsang's stampings much earlier than most authors and swiss experts think...

Or was someone just playing a practical joke on us Swiss addicts...?

p.s. Is there a chance that John S. or John D. might send Dan an email to the IP address he registered with...?

Regards,

Pete...

John Sabato · 04-26-2005, 11:00 AM

Pete,

If you click on his profile icon on one of his posts above, you will find a link that will allow you to send him a direct email through the forum software...

Pete Ebbink · 04-26-2005, 06:15 PM

Hi John,

I have done that 2 times...but I think it only goes to the Private Message box feature...and have gotten no replies...

I was hopining John-I or John-II could send a nice email direct, asking Dan to log onto the Forum again.

One of our part-time LF member's in Italy is a writer for a big Italian gun magazine and is also very interested in knowing if M1900 Swiss # 90 indeed, is with the Vogelsang stampings...

I am trying to get Dan and this fellow together for research purposes...

Regards,

Pete...

Pete Ebbink · 04-27-2005, 07:19 AM

Found the feature....thanks John II...email sent to Dan Metz.

10-13-2003, 02:17 AM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Pete, Swiss Ordonnanzpistole Modell 1900 serial number 01 (the first Swiss military Luger) in the Henk Visser collection is configured as the Luger you described. Christian Reinhart in Ã¢??Pistolen und Revolver der SchweizÃ¢?Â shows Ordonnanzpistole #465 marked the same way. I have #109 with unrelieved frame and flat button mag also in the same configuration. Based on the Reinhart example it would appear that perhaps as many as 500 of the initial Swiss military pieces did not bear the Vogelsang inspection mark, and the number may even be higher. The #139 you observed is as right as rain, and being unaltered, i.e. unrelieved frame, it is worth a whole bunch of $$. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-01-2004, 04:04 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	The commercial guns will have BUG proofs, while the military contract pieces will bear only the Swiss Federal Cross proofs. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-24-2005, 12:29 PM	#12
Dan Metz New User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Champaign, IL Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I own a modest collection of early Swiss Lugers. My s/n 14 does not have a Vogelsang proof on the left side, but my s/n 90 does. My s/n 346 has only a Swiss cross. All three of these guns have the earliest type safety. My s/n 1781 does in fact have a Vogelsang proof on the left side (type 2 safety), as do my s/n 2532 (type 3 safety) and s/n 4110 (wide trigger). Hope this helps. Dan M. __________________ INDYDOC OUT

01-24-2005, 02:55 PM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Dan, Saying you Ã¢??own a modest collection of early Swiss LugersÃ¢?Â is somewhat akin to saying that the Louvre owns a modest collection of Rembrandts. Early Lugers are my chief interest, and you have accumulated some great examples. My admiration for your guns aside, I wonder if I might ask a couple of questions? Do any (or all) of your three earliest pieces still have unrelieved frames? Also, your #90 is the first example under approximately serial number 600 that I have heard of with VogelsangÃ¢??s mark. Have you observed any others? I join with John in welcoming you to this merry little band of Luger nuts. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-26-2005, 11:00 AM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Pete, If you click on his profile icon on one of his posts above, you will find a link that will allow you to send him a direct email through the forum software... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-12-2003, 08:47 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Very Early 1900 Swiss Luger... Got a chance to see a very early 1900 Swiss-DWM luger about a week ago during my travels. It is serial # 139, has the 1st. type of thumb safety, has the strawed DWM extractor, and has only the swiss cross on the left side frame and on the barrel (i.e. no BUG proofs). It also did not have the Vogelsang proof mark...which I thought odd... It came with a Swiss insert magazine with the early style, thin follower button and the frame was not cut/relieved for the magazine groove. The gun did not have a P-date release stamping and the finish appeared to be a very-excellent arsenal refinish. The polished safety area was very well defined, radiused, and crisp. Strawed parts looked very bright as well. Not having seem very many early Swiss lugers in person, I thought I would ask for opinions here... Are early Swiss lugers known to not have the Vogelsang stamping ? Unfortunately, this gun will probably stay with its present owner for the next 20 years or so. But I did volunteer to get some more opinions about this piece from the LF and will forward any info. to the Owner...who is not "wired"... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-13-2003, 08:11 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Ron, Thanks so much for the great follow-up info. You are such a storehouse of early luger info.!!! I had forgotten that I actually do have the C. Reinhart book...and I do see that # 465 on page 93. This is/such an elegantly designed luger...especially that 1st. variation thumb safety lever. I understand now your focus and specialization of your collection to "early" lugers only...after the model 1900, all others just seem like "mere" impersonations... I will forward a copy of this page to the Owner...(who lives somewhere between No. California and Cambridge, MA...) Any guess to current value on this gun ? $ 3-4K, $ 4-5K, $ 6-7K ?...remembering it might be a Bern rework...? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-13-2003, 08:45 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	If you find a very early Swiss Luger that is in excellent condition, there is a very high probability that it is a Bern rework. The Swiss took pride in their weapons and maintained their Lugers in a high state of condition. They had no problem with periodic maintenance and refurbishment. In my opinion, this is just part of collecting early Swiss, kind of like how a Dutch arsenal rework does not devalue an M11 or KOL all that much, they are just too hard to find. You usually can tell a Bern refurb from a gunsmith restoration. Granted, it is still more desirable to find and own an untouched gun, but I would still think that #139 would command a price in excess of your high range of $6-7K. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-30-2004, 07:45 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Just got a chance to see two early M1900 Swiss lugers in person at the Simspon LTD shop. Serial # 555 was without the V/+ stamping, but serial # 604 did have the V/+ stamping. So the range of numbers at which Voglesang started stamping his mark gets a bit more narrow... Oh...I bought # 555...more on that in a few days... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-01-2004, 03:21 AM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,313 Times in 430 Posts	Ron and Pete, I have been under the impression that the early Swiss guns without the V/+ stamp were in the commercial serial# series, rather than the military contract. Am I misinformed? If the first 500 or so military contract guns did not have the Vogelsgang stamp...how might one differentiate from the Commercial guns?? --Dwight

10-01-2004, 04:54 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Dwight, I have been trying to see early military Swiss M1900 lugers in person to see when Major Voglesang acutally started stamping his V/+ on the left side of the receiver. Most authors agree it occured around serial # 500 or so...just looking to pin-point a tighter cut-over. The more interesting question is why Voglesang did not starting with production luger # 1...as he was involved in the stamping of the M1882 revolvers in the early 1900's... Here is a photo of serial # 555...from the Simpson web site...I will post more photos next week as time and my travels allow. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-17-2004, 04:43 PM	#9
R.Allara User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	HiPete, I've seen the Swiss mod. 1900 serial #604 and serial #629. Both have the Vogelsang's mark

10-17-2004, 06:59 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Roberto, Thanks for your info. I have posted better photos of my "new" M1900 Swiss luger, serial # 555, in another discussion thread...let me know what you think about this luger. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-17-2004, 08:58 PM	#11
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Hi Pete, Not a bad lookin' shooter. I say that with lots of tongue in cheek...great find! Congrats, Tom A.

01-24-2005, 01:11 PM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Welcome to the Lugerforum Dan... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

04-25-2005, 08:58 PM	#15
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Has anyone had luck getting a hold of Dan Metz...? I would really like to get photos of his # 90 without the Voglesang stampings... This really pushes back Col. Vogelsang's stampings much earlier than most authors and swiss experts think... Or was someone just playing a practical joke on us Swiss addicts...? p.s. Is there a chance that John S. or John D. might send Dan an email to the IP address he registered with...? Regards, Pete...

04-26-2005, 06:15 PM	#17
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi John, I have done that 2 times...but I think it only goes to the Private Message box feature...and have gotten no replies... I was hopining John-I or John-II could send a nice email direct, asking Dan to log onto the Forum again. One of our part-time LF member's in Italy is a writer for a big Italian gun magazine and is also very interested in knowing if M1900 Swiss # 90 indeed, is with the Vogelsang stampings... I am trying to get Dan and this fellow together for research purposes... Regards, Pete...

04-27-2005, 07:19 AM	#18
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Found the feature....thanks John II...email sent to Dan Metz.