First Luger- Identifying proof marks.

lamarbrog · 12-21-2011, 12:04 AM

I recently acquired a P08 and want to learn more about it. It's definitely a shooter, and the previous owner had used it as just that and couldn't tell me much about it.

It is a DWM made in 1916. The frame and receiver have serial number "8659". The safety has a "59". Everything else that is serialized does not match.

The side plate has no serial number on it, and I think it may actually be an aftermarket part, as strange as that sounds. The bolt and upper receiver have what I identified as "German Military Proofs" thanks to the technical information provided on the site.

I am almost certain this has been reblued, although a good job was done.

The barrel has me puzzled. It may be rebarreled. There is a circle, that appears to have "KK" in the upper half, and a "10" in the lower half. The is a "19" elsewhere on the barrel. I can't see an indexing mark. There is a "9" near the muzzle. An indexing mark is visible on the upper receiver, but not on the barrel. Is it an aftermarket barrel?

The right grip panel is a little loose, but not bad.

A few technical questions-

How damaging is it to this pistol to dry fire it? I generally dry fire my pistols unless there is a good reason not to. Any special considerations for the Luger as far as that goes? (Firing pin is already not-matching.)

The other question I have, not that the answer really matters.... is this pistol capable of firing with the upper assembly detached from the frame? I've just been examining how it functions, and it appears that since the knobs would not interact with the frame to begin unlocking, it would fire normally without the frame just by pressing the linkage on the side. I don't intend to try this- but is it known to be possible?

Just trying to find out as much as I can about this. I don't see any import marks. Just a run of the mill refinished parts gun, I guess.

Ron Wood · 12-21-2011, 12:26 AM

The "KK/10" is a Portuguese marking and it is a replacement barrel. I have not seen a WWI Luger with a Portuguese barrel or possibly rebarrled by the Portuguese so this is a new one on me.

Dry firing is not a good idea. The firing pin slams into the interior of the breechblock and will crystallize over time and the tip will break. If you must dry fire it, use a snap cap...very inexpensive and will save your firing pin even if it is mismatched.

Yes, it is possible to fire a loaded Luger barrel/receiver group. Highly dangerous and not recommended. There are actual cases on record where individuals have been accidentally shot with a loaded Luger upper.

wlyon · 12-21-2011, 12:36 AM

The circle KK is Portuguese. So yes the barrel has been replaced. I personally would not dry fire my lugers. Maybe if you have a snap cap inserted. It's your gun and your risk. Yes a luger may be fired as you suggest. The Police placed a sear safety on there lugers to prevent this. Welcome to the forum and the crazy addictive world of luger collectoing. Bill

Ron you beat me by seconds. At least we agree

Ron Wood · 12-21-2011, 12:40 AM

Bill,
I would have been very suprised if we didn't!

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and yours!

lamarbrog · 12-21-2011, 12:57 AM

If this is a Portuguese rework, would there be other markings to indicate that? For example, would they have force-matched the other parts?

Or, is this more likely someone rebarreling a Luger, and they just happened to have a Portuguese barrel on hand?

LugerVern · 12-21-2011, 01:42 AM

We would really like to see pictures of your gun!

OK, I would really like to see the Portuguese markings
I kind of like those Portuguese lugers

thanks

Vern

sheepherder · 12-21-2011, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugervern

we would really like to see pictures of your gun!

Ok, i would really like to see the portuguese markings
i kind of like those portuguese lugers

+ 1

You didn't say what caliber or what length the barrel is...Take a #2 pencil, stick it down the barrel eraser first, and measure the length when it hits the breech...(That would mean it is 9mm)...

...If it won't go down the barrel, just measure the outside of the barrel, from the flange/receiver to the muzzle...(That would mean it is 7.65mm)...

lamarbrog · 12-21-2011, 11:19 PM

I think I can accommodate those requests.

She's got a 4" barrel, and is chambered for 9mm Parabellum.

I tried to get a picture of the mark on the side of the bolt, but was not particularly successful.

The proofs on the side of the upper receiver.

Made in 1916.

The barrel is very high gloss... this is the best I could do on the Portuguese mark.

DWM

Sorry the pictures are not very good...

LugerVern · 12-22-2011, 01:01 AM

Thanks for the pictures, an interesting gun. We see a lot of KK magazines but this is only my second barrel.

My understanding is that these KK parts are late production. The Portuguese used lugers into the 70's, so replacement parts were a must have.

Does anyone have a theory what the KK may stand for?

It would be interesting to survey Portuguese luger owners as to how may of thier guns have KK barrels on them?

The one other case I know of was also on a DWM rework-> very interesting.

thanks again for posting

Vern

lamarbrog · 12-22-2011, 01:17 AM

So, is it my understanding that this is a Portuguese rework? Not an American-assembled parts gun?

LugerVern · 12-22-2011, 09:55 AM

We can't really say for sure, not enough examples. Many facilities reworked Lugers over the years and just as many produced parts but had nothing to do with reworks.

It would be a guess without more evidence, right now you have a parts gun.

sorry

Vern

lamarbrog · 12-22-2011, 01:28 PM

That's okay. I bought it as a parts gun- so no let down. Interesting to think about what it might be.

Nomadr · 12-22-2011, 10:36 PM

Here is a thread I posted on Jan's site. I recently sold this one but have seen another on gun broker with the same markings.

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...What-do-I-have

Bob

lamarbrog · 12-23-2011, 02:57 AM

Interesting. I wonder what the source of the Bundesheer information is. Seems kind of strange the Austrians would be using Portuguese barrels.

LugerVern · 12-23-2011, 06:07 AM

Well that is the 3rd 1916 dated Luger with a KK stamped barrel, maybe a 4th.

It could be that the source isn't Portuguese, maybe the Portuguese simply purchased some left over parts.

Would be some interesting research. A small trend is developing, we shouldn't jump to conclusions however.

Vern

LugerVern · 12-23-2011, 06:24 AM

Here is an interesting tid bit of information, the time line isn't quite right however but, it might be worth a letter to the manufacture to see if they ever used the letters KK .

Voere is an Austrian gun maker The origins of the company date back to the 1948 establishment of the metal-working company Koma in West Germany. Originally producing bicycle tire pumps, the company branched out into the production of air pistols in 1950. In 1955, Koma was renamed Voere. The company's name is a combination of the founders' names: Voetter and Restle. That year, Voere began the production of small-bore rifles.

In 1965, the company relocated to a new factory in Kufstein, Austria.

lamarbrog · 12-24-2011, 12:19 AM

While I'm sure you're more knowledgeable on this topic than I am, Vern, what leads you to believe that company would have anything to do with this pistol?

Maybe I am just not seeing the obvious... but bicycles, air rifles, and small-caliber rifles isn't exactly synonymous with P08 barrels.

LugerVern · 12-24-2011, 08:15 AM

I was just doing some brain storming "KK" must stand for something? Koma, Kufstein just came to mind, by the way this company evolved into a rather serious gun manufacture .

It would not be unusual for a company to use its former name in identifying parts it has created. I am not jumping to conclusions but it's more than we have right now, as far as I know no one has identified what "KK" stands for?

They certainly could have made/ refurbished the parts for the Portuguese, but the "KK" markings on the P38's may occur too early for this theory to play out.

Need more research, this can be in the from of a negative or positive approach both are usually needed to weed out any errors.

I welcome any comments, can anyone show that my theory is wrong? " I know it probably is but, prove it"

By the way, it's Christmas Eve: Best Wishes to Everyone !

Vern

Feamane · 12-25-2011, 11:39 AM

Hi,

I am interested in the KK markings as well since I own the pistol Bob sold. I would like to point out that on page 125 of "P.38 Magazines and Grips" de Vlieger, Clarin, and Roth put forth the theory that this marking is of Austrian, not Portuguese origin. If you don't have the book some of the authors are involved in a disscussion about this in this thread on the P.38 forum: http://forums.p38forum.com/forums/vi...=26179&start=0

It seems they have put some effort into researching this, and while they don't seem to have found the "smoking gun", they make a good case. On the other hand I've never seen anybody list the reasons why they think this is a Portuguese marking. Does anybody have sources that give more details about the Portuguese connection? I would like to be able to compare the information for both and see which has the stronger evidence.

Best regards,
DJ

LugerVern · 12-25-2011, 04:14 PM

DJ

Interesting post over on the P38 forum, we can not say for sure either way, I have not seen a Portuguese Luger with a KK barrel, but there is a strong appearance of KK marked Luger magazines with later Portuguese Lugers.

I would say the evidence points the other way right now and that Austrian may be the source, even though a Luger magazine so marked might very well be perfectly OK in a Portuguese Luger.

Thanks for posting

Vern

12-21-2011, 12:04 AM	#1
lamarbrog User Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	First Luger- Identifying proof marks. I recently acquired a P08 and want to learn more about it. It's definitely a shooter, and the previous owner had used it as just that and couldn't tell me much about it. It is a DWM made in 1916. The frame and receiver have serial number "8659". The safety has a "59". Everything else that is serialized does not match. The side plate has no serial number on it, and I think it may actually be an aftermarket part, as strange as that sounds. The bolt and upper receiver have what I identified as "German Military Proofs" thanks to the technical information provided on the site. I am almost certain this has been reblued, although a good job was done. The barrel has me puzzled. It may be rebarreled. There is a circle, that appears to have "KK" in the upper half, and a "10" in the lower half. The is a "19" elsewhere on the barrel. I can't see an indexing mark. There is a "9" near the muzzle. An indexing mark is visible on the upper receiver, but not on the barrel. Is it an aftermarket barrel? The right grip panel is a little loose, but not bad. A few technical questions- How damaging is it to this pistol to dry fire it? I generally dry fire my pistols unless there is a good reason not to. Any special considerations for the Luger as far as that goes? (Firing pin is already not-matching.) The other question I have, not that the answer really matters.... is this pistol capable of firing with the upper assembly detached from the frame? I've just been examining how it functions, and it appears that since the knobs would not interact with the frame to begin unlocking, it would fire normally without the frame just by pressing the linkage on the side. I don't intend to try this- but is it known to be possible? Just trying to find out as much as I can about this. I don't see any import marks. Just a run of the mill refinished parts gun, I guess.

12-21-2011, 12:36 AM	#3
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,635 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,555 Times in 954 Posts	The circle KK is Portuguese. So yes the barrel has been replaced. I personally would not dry fire my lugers. Maybe if you have a snap cap inserted. It's your gun and your risk. Yes a luger may be fired as you suggest. The Police placed a sear safety on there lugers to prevent this. Welcome to the forum and the crazy addictive world of luger collectoing. Bill Ron you beat me by seconds. At least we agree __________________ Bill Lyon

12-21-2011, 12:40 AM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	Bill, I would have been very suprised if we didn't! Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and yours! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-21-2011, 12:26 AM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	The "KK/10" is a Portuguese marking and it is a replacement barrel. I have not seen a WWI Luger with a Portuguese barrel or possibly rebarrled by the Portuguese so this is a new one on me. Dry firing is not a good idea. The firing pin slams into the interior of the breechblock and will crystallize over time and the tip will break. If you must dry fire it, use a snap cap...very inexpensive and will save your firing pin even if it is mismatched. Yes, it is possible to fire a loaded Luger barrel/receiver group. Highly dangerous and not recommended. There are actual cases on record where individuals have been accidentally shot with a loaded Luger upper. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-21-2011, 12:57 AM	#5
lamarbrog User Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	If this is a Portuguese rework, would there be other markings to indicate that? For example, would they have force-matched the other parts? Or, is this more likely someone rebarreling a Luger, and they just happened to have a Portuguese barrel on hand?

12-21-2011, 01:42 AM	#6
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	We would really like to see pictures of your gun! OK, I would really like to see the Portuguese markings I kind of like those Portuguese lugers thanks Vern

12-21-2011, 11:19 PM	#8
lamarbrog User Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think I can accommodate those requests. She's got a 4" barrel, and is chambered for 9mm Parabellum. I tried to get a picture of the mark on the side of the bolt, but was not particularly successful. The proofs on the side of the upper receiver. Made in 1916. The barrel is very high gloss... this is the best I could do on the Portuguese mark. DWM Sorry the pictures are not very good...

12-22-2011, 01:01 AM	#9
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Thanks for the pictures, an interesting gun. We see a lot of KK magazines but this is only my second barrel. My understanding is that these KK parts are late production. The Portuguese used lugers into the 70's, so replacement parts were a must have. Does anyone have a theory what the KK may stand for? It would be interesting to survey Portuguese luger owners as to how may of thier guns have KK barrels on them? The one other case I know of was also on a DWM rework-> very interesting. thanks again for posting Vern

12-22-2011, 01:17 AM	#10
lamarbrog User Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	So, is it my understanding that this is a Portuguese rework? Not an American-assembled parts gun?

12-22-2011, 09:55 AM	#11
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	We can't really say for sure, not enough examples. Many facilities reworked Lugers over the years and just as many produced parts but had nothing to do with reworks. It would be a guess without more evidence, right now you have a parts gun. sorry Vern

12-22-2011, 01:28 PM	#12
lamarbrog User Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	That's okay. I bought it as a parts gun- so no let down. Interesting to think about what it might be.

12-22-2011, 10:36 PM	#13
Nomadr Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 276 Thanks: 16 Thanked 28 Times in 22 Posts	Here is a thread I posted on Jan's site. I recently sold this one but have seen another on gun broker with the same markings. http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...What-do-I-have Bob

12-23-2011, 02:57 AM	#14
lamarbrog User Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Interesting. I wonder what the source of the Bundesheer information is. Seems kind of strange the Austrians would be using Portuguese barrels.

12-23-2011, 06:07 AM	#15
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Well that is the 3rd 1916 dated Luger with a KK stamped barrel, maybe a 4th. It could be that the source isn't Portuguese, maybe the Portuguese simply purchased some left over parts. Would be some interesting research. A small trend is developing, we shouldn't jump to conclusions however. Vern

12-23-2011, 06:24 AM	#16
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Here is an interesting tid bit of information, the time line isn't quite right however but, it might be worth a letter to the manufacture to see if they ever used the letters KK . Voere is an Austrian gun maker The origins of the company date back to the 1948 establishment of the metal-working company Koma in West Germany. Originally producing bicycle tire pumps, the company branched out into the production of air pistols in 1950. In 1955, Koma was renamed Voere. The company's name is a combination of the founders' names: Voetter and Restle. That year, Voere began the production of small-bore rifles. In 1965, the company relocated to a new factory in Kufstein, Austria.

12-24-2011, 12:19 AM	#17
lamarbrog User Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	While I'm sure you're more knowledgeable on this topic than I am, Vern, what leads you to believe that company would have anything to do with this pistol? Maybe I am just not seeing the obvious... but bicycles, air rifles, and small-caliber rifles isn't exactly synonymous with P08 barrels.

12-24-2011, 08:15 AM	#18
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	I was just doing some brain storming "KK" must stand for something? Koma, Kufstein just came to mind, by the way this company evolved into a rather serious gun manufacture . It would not be unusual for a company to use its former name in identifying parts it has created. I am not jumping to conclusions but it's more than we have right now, as far as I know no one has identified what "KK" stands for? They certainly could have made/ refurbished the parts for the Portuguese, but the "KK" markings on the P38's may occur too early for this theory to play out. Need more research, this can be in the from of a negative or positive approach both are usually needed to weed out any errors. I welcome any comments, can anyone show that my theory is wrong? " I know it probably is but, prove it" By the way, it's Christmas Eve: Best Wishes to Everyone ! Vern

12-25-2011, 11:39 AM	#19
Feamane User Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 11 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Hi, I am interested in the KK markings as well since I own the pistol Bob sold. I would like to point out that on page 125 of "P.38 Magazines and Grips" de Vlieger, Clarin, and Roth put forth the theory that this marking is of Austrian, not Portuguese origin. If you don't have the book some of the authors are involved in a disscussion about this in this thread on the P.38 forum: http://forums.p38forum.com/forums/vi...=26179&start=0 It seems they have put some effort into researching this, and while they don't seem to have found the "smoking gun", they make a good case. On the other hand I've never seen anybody list the reasons why they think this is a Portuguese marking. Does anybody have sources that give more details about the Portuguese connection? I would like to be able to compare the information for both and see which has the stronger evidence. Best regards, DJ

12-25-2011, 04:14 PM	#20
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	DJ Interesting post over on the P38 forum, we can not say for sure either way, I have not seen a Portuguese Luger with a KK barrel, but there is a strong appearance of KK marked Luger magazines with later Portuguese Lugers. I would say the evidence points the other way right now and that Austrian may be the source, even though a Luger magazine so marked might very well be perfectly OK in a Portuguese Luger. Thanks for posting Vern