Early Frame Tutorial

Ron Wood · 03-08-2004, 08:36 PM

Most of our Luger Forum members are familiar with the designation of"Long Frame" and "Short Frame". The "long" frame and receiver is 2mm longer than the "short" frame and receiver, with the extra length occurring in front of the takedown lever. The threaded portion of the long and short frame barrels are also 2mm different in length and therefore are not interchangeable.

However, some beginning Luger fans may not be aware that during early Luger development there were several transition steps from the old model "long" frame to the new model "short" frame.

Here are Type categorizations of these transition steps that I have made into a little guide. These are my observations and I am sure this list may not be totally comprehensive and that exceptions do exist (all bets are off on 1920 era Lugers), but it is by and large representative. I welcome any recommended corrections, changes or comments.

Type I - Old model long frame, thick rounded frame and trigger guard the full width of the frame. Type I is found on 1900 military and commercial Lugers, 1900 and 1902 Carbines, some 1902 Prototypes, and the 1904 Navy (with the addition of a stock lug).

Type II - Old model short frame, squared off frame, trigger guard the full width of the frame, and "thin" frame below the takedown lever. Type II is found on 1902 commercial, American Eagle, and test Lugers (Dutch, German, and American Eagle), some 1902 Prototypes, and 1903 Commercial.

Type III - New model long frame, rounded frame with rebated trigger guard (trigger guard machined narrower than the frame). Type III is found on 1906 Navy, early 1906 commercial and American Eagle (some safety marked and some with stock lug), 1906 Swiss (DWM Cross in Sunburst, DWM Cross in Shield and Waffenfabrik Bern produced).

Type IV - New model short frame, squared off thin frame, rebated trigger guard. Type IV is found on early 1906 9mm Lugers (Commercial, American Eagle, Russian) and the 1907 .45 Caliber Test Luger. Also found on 1906 7.65mm Lugers such as: 1906 Bulgarian, M2 Portuguese, some Commercial, and some Swiss.

Type V - New model short frame, squared off thick frame (with the thicker area below the takedown lever), rebated trigger guard. Type V is found on virtually all Lugers produced after 1908, to include commercial and contract Lugers of the 1906 pattern with grip safety.

Dwight Gruber · 03-09-2004, 12:05 AM

Ron,

Thanks for the really excellent and informative tutorial. I have a couple of questions.

What frame details would one find on a 1904 Navy?

In Type II, to what 1902 American Eagle Test Lugers do you refer?

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 03-09-2004, 03:29 AM

Dwight,

The 1904 Navy frame is the old model flat laminated mainspring type "long" frame BUT with the addition of a stock lug. I will add the 1904 Navy to the Type I examples. Thank you.

The 1902 US Test Cartridge Counter Lugers had the American Eagle over the chamber.

mrerick · 11-28-2010, 05:54 PM

I've attached a PDF format file of Ron's excellent tutorial:

FNorm · 11-28-2010, 07:31 PM

Thank you, Marc!

FN

Wilhelm · 11-29-2010, 02:31 AM

Thanks Ron. WOW!! on the picture quality!!

11-29-2010, 04:45 PM

Very nice. Thanks.

sheepherder · 11-29-2010, 06:36 PM

+ 1

Right click; Save...

Ron Wood · 11-30-2010, 12:48 PM

Hard to believe it has been six years already since that tutorial was first posted. Since then it has been published in Jan Still's last book and now is having a relook on this forum. Kind of like a bad penny...it keeps turning up!

Edward Tinker · 11-30-2010, 12:52 PM

A very nice penny Ron

Sometimes an effort that seemed easy for you, helps so many others. Well done.

Ron Wood · 11-30-2010, 01:01 PM

Stuff like this gets buried in the “Research Archives” section because only the last posting is directly accessible. The topics of “Early Lugers (1900-1906)”, “Military Lugers “, and “Commercial Lugers” have some neat information but you have to click on the main topic and then select “From the beginning” and “Show Threads” so see everything that is hidden there. New folks (and probably a bunch of regulars) are unaware of what is available.

A.Mifsin · 11-30-2010, 02:23 PM

As matter of fact I had to ask about the frame variations because I forgot about your tutorial, then I was directed to it.

Alf.

frankenlugerguy · 06-15-2020, 03:36 PM

Although I'm getting to this post somewhat after-the-fact, it's the kind of thing I'm eating up right now, as I dig deeper and learn more about my favorite firearm. Thanks, Ron, for all of the great information you've put up on the forum to help new members like me.

Proofed · 06-15-2020, 10:59 PM

Thanks Ron valuable information for those who crave details.

Proofed · 06-16-2020, 10:40 AM

Ron is that 2mm difference directly related to the difference of the 7.65x21 and the 9x19 bullet lengths.?

Ron Wood · 06-16-2020, 12:52 PM

I rather doubt it, there are examples of both frame types in either caliber. Almost certainly going to the short frame was an effort to reduce weight (and possibly a little aesthetics). I think the Swiss stayed with the long frame just because they didn't feel the necessity to re-tool.
Ron

spangy · 05-14-2022, 06:21 PM

Lucky penny ... not bad penny

Thanks so much Ron absolutely excellent.

03-08-2004, 08:36 PM	#1
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,021 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,175 Times in 1,702 Posts	Early Frame Tutorial Most of our Luger Forum members are familiar with the designation of"Long Frame" and "Short Frame". The "long" frame and receiver is 2mm longer than the "short" frame and receiver, with the extra length occurring in front of the takedown lever. The threaded portion of the long and short frame barrels are also 2mm different in length and therefore are not interchangeable. However, some beginning Luger fans may not be aware that during early Luger development there were several transition steps from the old model "long" frame to the new model "short" frame. Here are Type categorizations of these transition steps that I have made into a little guide. These are my observations and I am sure this list may not be totally comprehensive and that exceptions do exist (all bets are off on 1920 era Lugers), but it is by and large representative. I welcome any recommended corrections, changes or comments. Type I - Old model long frame, thick rounded frame and trigger guard the full width of the frame. Type I is found on 1900 military and commercial Lugers, 1900 and 1902 Carbines, some 1902 Prototypes, and the 1904 Navy (with the addition of a stock lug). Type II - Old model short frame, squared off frame, trigger guard the full width of the frame, and "thin" frame below the takedown lever. Type II is found on 1902 commercial, American Eagle, and test Lugers (Dutch, German, and American Eagle), some 1902 Prototypes, and 1903 Commercial. Type III - New model long frame, rounded frame with rebated trigger guard (trigger guard machined narrower than the frame). Type III is found on 1906 Navy, early 1906 commercial and American Eagle (some safety marked and some with stock lug), 1906 Swiss (DWM Cross in Sunburst, DWM Cross in Shield and Waffenfabrik Bern produced). Type IV - New model short frame, squared off thin frame, rebated trigger guard. Type IV is found on early 1906 9mm Lugers (Commercial, American Eagle, Russian) and the 1907 .45 Caliber Test Luger. Also found on 1906 7.65mm Lugers such as: 1906 Bulgarian, M2 Portuguese, some Commercial, and some Swiss. Type V - New model short frame, squared off thick frame (with the thicker area below the takedown lever), rebated trigger guard. Type V is found on virtually all Lugers produced after 1908, to include commercial and contract Lugers of the 1906 pattern with grip safety. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 06-15-2020 at 04:27 PM.

03-09-2004, 03:29 AM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,021 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,175 Times in 1,702 Posts	Dwight, The 1904 Navy frame is the old model flat laminated mainspring type "long" frame BUT with the addition of a stock lug. I will add the 1904 Navy to the Type I examples. Thank you. The 1902 US Test Cartridge Counter Lugers had the American Eagle over the chamber. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-29-2010, 02:31 AM	#6
Wilhelm User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Maryland Posts: 358 Thanks: 45 Thanked 124 Times in 59 Posts	Thanks Ron. WOW!! on the picture quality!! __________________ translatedfrenchmanuals@yahoo.com I promise to be nice and play well with others

11-29-2010, 06:36 PM	#8
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	+ 1 Right click; Save... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

11-30-2010, 12:48 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,021 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,175 Times in 1,702 Posts	Hard to believe it has been six years already since that tutorial was first posted. Since then it has been published in Jan Still's last book and now is having a relook on this forum. Kind of like a bad penny...it keeps turning up! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-09-2004, 12:05 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,901 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,316 Times in 430 Posts	Ron, Thanks for the really excellent and informative tutorial. I have a couple of questions. What frame details would one find on a 1904 Navy? In Type II, to what 1902 American Eagle Test Lugers do you refer? --Dwight

11-28-2010, 07:31 PM	#5
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	Thank you, Marc! FN

11-29-2010, 04:45 PM	#7
Brad Guest Posts: n/a	Very nice. Thanks.

11-30-2010, 12:52 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,932 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	A very nice penny Ron Sometimes an effort that seemed easy for you, helps so many others. Well done.

11-30-2010, 01:01 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,021 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,175 Times in 1,702 Posts	Stuff like this gets buried in the “Research Archives” section because only the last posting is directly accessible. The topics of “Early Lugers (1900-1906)”, “Military Lugers “, and “Commercial Lugers” have some neat information but you have to click on the main topic and then select “From the beginning” and “Show Threads” so see everything that is hidden there. New folks (and probably a bunch of regulars) are unaware of what is available. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-30-2010, 02:23 PM	#12
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	As matter of fact I had to ask about the frame variations because I forgot about your tutorial, then I was directed to it. Alf. __________________ I prefer a Luger

06-15-2020, 03:36 PM	#13
frankenlugerguy User Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: The Mountains of Western North Carolina Posts: 38 Thanks: 563 Thanked 33 Times in 21 Posts	Although I'm getting to this post somewhat after-the-fact, it's the kind of thing I'm eating up right now, as I dig deeper and learn more about my favorite firearm. Thanks, Ron, for all of the great information you've put up on the forum to help new members like me. __________________ Cursum Perficio

06-15-2020, 10:59 PM	#14
Proofed User Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Pa. Posts: 157 Thanks: 535 Thanked 338 Times in 90 Posts	Never Old Info Thanks Ron valuable information for those who crave details.

06-16-2020, 10:40 AM	#15
Proofed User Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Pa. Posts: 157 Thanks: 535 Thanked 338 Times in 90 Posts	21 or 19 Ron is that 2mm difference directly related to the difference of the 7.65x21 and the 9x19 bullet lengths.?

06-16-2020, 12:52 PM	#16
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,021 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,175 Times in 1,702 Posts	I rather doubt it, there are examples of both frame types in either caliber. Almost certainly going to the short frame was an effort to reduce weight (and possibly a little aesthetics). I think the Swiss stayed with the long frame just because they didn't feel the necessity to re-tool. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-14-2022, 06:21 PM	#17
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 617 Thanks: 3,065 Thanked 1,057 Times in 429 Posts	Lucky penny ... not bad penny Thanks so much Ron absolutely excellent. __________________ Whoever said that "money can't buy you happiness" never bought a Luger. WTB - Take Down Lever & Trigger Plate (#90) for an Imperial Artillery.