Odd Barrel Markings

whitedogfive · 05-31-2013, 08:43 PM

I have a mismatched P08, toggle marked BYF with a 42 in front of the toggle. The barrel is marked with an E with a PS beneath it. I can find nothing about this barrel marking. Anyone have a clue? Thanks.

mrerick · 05-31-2013, 10:46 PM

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

Could you post a sharp picture of it?

Marc

SteveM · 06-01-2013, 08:52 AM

Most likely after market barrel. The frame on this pistol has been renumbered, there were not any 5 digit serial numbers on Mauser mfg Lugers. As a matter of fact, at least to me, the area displaying the serial number appears to have been shaved prior to this number being applied. Full pics of both sides of the pistol and any proof marks would be nice so as to at least determine who made the frame.

sheepherder · 06-01-2013, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveM

As a matter of fact, at least to me, the area displaying the serial number appears to have been shaved prior to this number being applied.

+ 1

The whole front of the frame looks shaved & re-blued...Numbers look bright...Top loop of the suffix looks like it is missing (part of the shaving)...

More pics needed; side views, straight on view...

John Sabato · 06-01-2013, 12:53 PM

The numbers on the front have definitely been restamped wiith a modern die set. The font does not match or even come close to the vintage of the other numbers visible in the photos. The front of the frame has been ground down just enough to eliminate any trace of the original numbers after the new numbers were stamped with a heavy hammer blow. The orignal number IMHO was only 4 digits and centered. The "extra" 6 was added to change the number that was orginally stamped. I wiil speculate that this was done by the EG Vopo since the new numbers appear similar to fonts I have seen on Vopo production post war magazine bottoms. I can't speculate on "why". I believe the suffix to be original.

John Sabato · 06-03-2013, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitedogfive

At first, I thought the BATF did it but they consider the upper as the gun since on a Luger that can fire without the frame.

Actually that interpretation would be accurate, but in my experience, and that of many others, the BATFE (formerly BATF), wrongly considers the lower frame to be the registered part, in spite of the fact that the lower frame is not necessary to fire a round from the upper...

If you actually had a BATFE agent tell you that the upper is the firearm, then that guy was using common sense, not the common interpretation of the Luger by that agency...

I agree that there should be more examples of this phenomenon if it were done by a goverment arsenal, but regardless, this gun's serial number has been altered... at least IMHO, for the reasons stated. Sorry.

mrerick · 06-03-2013, 04:39 PM

Your original question about the barrel marking hasn't been answered.

I don't see the witness mark that normally extends from the receiver onto the barrel flange. It's very likely that the pistol had it's barrel changed out at some point.

Those stampings may have related to the organization or individual that did the barrel change and possibly a subsequent proof.

I have not seen markings like that before...

Marc

Karl · 06-04-2013, 09:59 AM

I do not see the "Mauser hump" on the back of the frame, suggesting that the re-numbered frame does not belong to the receiver. Might even be WWI vintage.
KFS

MikeP · 06-04-2013, 07:39 PM

From things I have read in the past, the obvious alteration to the frame and serial number could raise legal questions.

Balder · 06-05-2013, 11:30 AM

Gentlemen,

I have seen Luger replacement barrels made at Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk (State Arsenal) in Norway marked with "P" and/or "S", can't remember having seen any "E"s though.

Balder

kurusu · 10-13-2015, 11:35 AM

Bump

Sergio Natali · 10-13-2015, 11:57 AM

Sorry if it is me, BUT I can't se any posted picture!

Sergio

kurusu · 10-13-2015, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

Sorry if it is me, BUT I can't se any posted picture!

Sergio

I guess there never was a picture in this thread. I just bumped it up because it's the same markings as in DonVoigt recent thread in "Repairs, restoration & refinish". You can see pictures there.

DonVoigt · 10-13-2015, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurusu

I guess there never was a picture in this thread. I just bumped it up because it's the same markings as in DonVoigt recent thread in "Repairs, restoration & refinish". You can see pictures there.

just so they will be here too:

05-31-2013, 08:43 PM	#1
whitedogfive New User Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 1 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Odd Barrel Markings I have a mismatched P08, toggle marked BYF with a 42 in front of the toggle. The barrel is marked with an E with a PS beneath it. I can find nothing about this barrel marking. Anyone have a clue? Thanks.

05-31-2013, 10:46 PM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,907 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,509 Posts	Hi, and welcome to the forum. Could you post a sharp picture of it? Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

06-01-2013, 12:53 PM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	The numbers on the front have definitely been restamped wiith a modern die set. The font does not match or even come close to the vintage of the other numbers visible in the photos. The front of the frame has been ground down just enough to eliminate any trace of the original numbers after the new numbers were stamped with a heavy hammer blow. The orignal number IMHO was only 4 digits and centered. The "extra" 6 was added to change the number that was orginally stamped. I wiil speculate that this was done by the EG Vopo since the new numbers appear similar to fonts I have seen on Vopo production post war magazine bottoms. I can't speculate on "why". I believe the suffix to be original. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-03-2013, 04:39 PM	#7
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,907 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,509 Posts	Your original question about the barrel marking hasn't been answered. I don't see the witness mark that normally extends from the receiver onto the barrel flange. It's very likely that the pistol had it's barrel changed out at some point. Those stampings may have related to the organization or individual that did the barrel change and possibly a subsequent proof. I have not seen markings like that before... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-13-2015, 11:57 AM	#12
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Sorry if it is me, BUT I can't se any posted picture! Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

06-01-2013, 08:52 AM	#3
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Most likely after market barrel. The frame on this pistol has been renumbered, there were not any 5 digit serial numbers on Mauser mfg Lugers. As a matter of fact, at least to me, the area displaying the serial number appears to have been shaved prior to this number being applied. Full pics of both sides of the pistol and any proof marks would be nice so as to at least determine who made the frame.

06-04-2013, 09:59 AM	#8
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 517 Thanks: 0 Thanked 255 Times in 113 Posts	I do not see the "Mauser hump" on the back of the frame, suggesting that the re-numbered frame does not belong to the receiver. Might even be WWI vintage. KFS

06-04-2013, 07:39 PM	#9
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	From things I have read in the past, the obvious alteration to the frame and serial number could raise legal questions.

06-05-2013, 11:30 AM	#10
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	Gentlemen, I have seen Luger replacement barrels made at Kongsberg Våpenfabrikk (State Arsenal) in Norway marked with "P" and/or "S", can't remember having seen any "E"s though. Balder

10-13-2015, 11:35 AM	#11
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 930 Times in 509 Posts	Bump