Opinions on this shooter?

phatrick88 · 06-04-2008, 11:16 PM

BYF 41 non-matching, seller claims excellent mechanical condition, $700. It's what I was looking for, a shooter from WWII with Nazi proofs. Is that price too high? How does the gun look? Opinions? Thanks guys.

phatrick88 · 06-04-2008, 11:16 PM

Second pic:

LugerVern · 06-05-2008, 07:12 AM

It doesn't look abused to me, so may make a fine shooter.
Prices, have just gone crazy lately, I don't think $700 is all that bad. You could have a very long wait to find one in as good a shape and cheaper. They are out there but people are parting them out to make more money.

A couple of months ago I sold my two Erfurt shooters for $500 each, they were buffed/sanded to death guns with almost no finish left of the cold bluing that was once applied. They sold very quickly; sure I only had $400 and $450 into them and made a little money but I think I could of made more. Now I am without a shooter luger and am faced with much higher prices to replace them.

Do you have access to the gun?

Make sure your getting an action that is not binding, the barrel looks replaced to me and that is good for a shooter but if they twisted the frame getting the old one off, it will be a pain to get it straighten again and cost you more dollars.

Get a return policy.

They are not going to let you shoot it, but you will be able to quickly tell if there is sever binding by cycling the action by hand and inspecting for internal ware.

My two cents worth

Vern

John Winter · 06-05-2008, 08:22 AM

If you're loking for a Luger with practically no investment potential, you seem to have found one. Prices are higher in the east, but around our area, that would be a pedigreed shooter priced at <$450. The escalating price of gasoline seems to be putting more guns on the market. My humble opinion would be to take in a gun show or two, and see what's available before spending that much on a candidate for a police evidence locker.

John Sabato · 06-05-2008, 10:31 AM

The upper receiver may be from a byf 41, but the lower receiver (grip frame) while manufactured by Mauser is not a 1941... the P.08 that is normally stamped on the left side flat is missing...

The grips are horrible and don't even match each other. The left side checkering looks like it was done by a convict with a contraband knife...

I think $700 is a little too high for this one... take the guy less in cash and see if he will deal. If it shoots okay, some new grips would perk up the image a little, but I would not invest any money in refinishing it.

Let us know how you make out.

John Winter · 06-05-2008, 11:57 AM

John,

You're certainly a gentleman. I would classify this gun as a lot of loose parts flying in close formation. Assuming that the magazine catch is fully engaged, there seems to be an excessive gap between the magazine bottom and the frame. Whether this is due to wear on the magazine release and/or the slot in the magazine body is hard to tell, but it could indicate a feeding problem which hopefully, didn't result in "throating."My opinion is that any money invested on improvements would ony compound a a situation in which the price is at least twice the realistic value of the gun. I strongly agree that cash can work wonders and I wish him luck.

policeluger · 06-05-2008, 12:04 PM

I would ask to test fire it, I would not buy any used gun without that permission.....if it functions well, $700 is about as good as its going to get on a shooter...

John Winter · 06-05-2008, 12:07 PM

Policeluger,

Are you paying $700 for "shooter" Lugers? Please let me know.

LugerVern · 06-05-2008, 02:07 PM

How interesting this difference in opinions on prices for shooter lugers!

All I can say is, if members have nice shooter lugers they will part with in the $400 to $500 range please place adds here on the forum, we have new members who are looking to get into the hobby and want to start off with a good shooter.

Those guns I got rid of just recently didn't look this good, they were bad, and they went fast!

Vern

John Winter · 06-05-2008, 04:08 PM

Vern,

I know that prices are higher on the coasts, but there was a decent matching DWM with a rough but shootable bore walking around at the last big Tulsa show for $700, asking. Guess maybe I'm picky, but if it doesn't match, it's just parts to me and not worth the paperwork. About the only guns that bring any money around here are Colt SAA's and Winchesters and they frequently go to people from out of state. Shooter Lugers here don't bring much. Perhaps they're good trading material after all.

G.T. · 06-05-2008, 05:49 PM

The whole shooter Luger idea is an interesting study in value... First, it has to have a certain negitive degree of faults or condition to even enter this arena.... While matching numbers are always desirable, if it is a shooter, some serious cosmetic flaw, or lack of condition has already rendered this point to be nearly moot... So lets take the very best case scenario for a shooter, either a very nice original condition, either matching or non-matching... with, lets say a big nasty rust spot on the grip frame, or receiver.. I only used this for an example because I think we all hate rust equally... The pistol, to me, at this point, is only worth the retail value of the sum total of it's sellable / useable parts.... so lets break it down.... 75.00 to 100.00 for each the barrel, grips, sideplate, clip, frame and/or receiver, and small parts... maybe 125.00 for the toggle train... give or take 25.00 here and there depending on condition... it would seem that around $700.00 would be near the top end for any 4" barrel shooter, everything being pretty nice... Now, lets take a gun that is all buffed, reblued, rusted, or otherwise ugly to all but its mother! The parts can barely used for what they are now doing... it would seem that even $400.00 is a lot to ask?? I opted for a nice shooter, all made from byf parts, that were also nice... some assemblies match, some don't, but condition is all important to me..My shooter probably is at the $700.00 mark... but I would find it hard to ask more if I was going to sell... just a little different way to look at it, best to all, til...lat'r....GT

phatrick88 · 06-05-2008, 06:13 PM

I must say, it's absolutely amazing how knowledable you guys are to be able to pick this gun apart with just two pictures. Per the seller, it only has two different serial numbers on it, so it doesn't sound like a total mismatch.

Grips would be the first thing to go. Are new grips expensive and hard to come by? How would you rate the finish on this gun compared to other shooters? I'll see what I can do with the price, but it sounds like I shouldn't lose too much sleep if this one falls through. I just got my first Luger book in the mail today, i'm trying to learn as much as I can asap so I don't have to post every Luger i'm interested in for you guys to critique for me

And yes, if anyone has a decent shooter they want to let go, let me know! --> phatrick88@yahoo.com

Thanks guys!

policeluger · 06-05-2008, 06:35 PM

well we see how many listed their shooters in the 4/500 range....no I do not own a shooter grade, my collection is all Weimar police, 100% matching with each of the guns having at least one matching mag and some two, not not forced match but as technical correct and righteous as one can find, there are two major Weimar police Luger book in the works, and both writers are using my collection as part of the study...I but shooter when I find them and supply several local gun shops with such.....anybody with 4/500$$ shootes for sale that are worth a darm....

John Winter · 06-05-2008, 07:10 PM

phatrick88,

After all, you did solicit opinions. In addition to grips, you'll need grip screws as well. The grips may require some fitting. Assuming that everything else functions, at $700 + tax, etc. and improvements, you will have invested a considerable amount into a shooter. Enjoy!

Ron Wood · 06-05-2008, 09:31 PM

I usually do not jump into discussions of value, but in this case I have to agree with Vern... "I don't think $700 is all that bad. You could have a very long wait to find one in as good a shape and cheaper". There is no way this gun only worth half the asking price, and in this day and age a $400 shooter (i.e. one that will really shoot and isn't a total bucket of rust) is a myth unless you happen to stumble across an unsuspecting widow with one at a yard sale. I would rather see this one at $600, but 6 months to a year from now it is going to seem like a bargain.

John Winter · 06-05-2008, 09:49 PM

I found a matching byf 41 in about 92% original condition for approximately the price of the Frankenluger being discussed at the llast Colorado Gun Collectors show and I wasn't the first dealer to look at it. An elixir of time and a tincture of patience can be invaluable assets when contemplating a collector firearm purchase. Junk is junk and will always be junk, I respect my fellow collectors too much to ever advise them to buy junk.

alanint · 06-05-2008, 09:50 PM

Just as an aside. I just bought an import marked, (AIG, Miami, Fl)1940 date 42 toggle Luger and a mint, matching AC41 P38. Both for $800.
Unusual circumstances, granted. The owner was an aquaintance who was moving back to Argentina.
The Luger is a dipped blue, (with almost no buffing), all matching on major components, with a forced side plate, serial # 6226H. The sear and safety have had the serials "dimpled out" and the grips are non-matching a a bit ratty. The best part is the gun shoots beautifully with both the accompanying mag, (B code and Waamt655, but serial buffed out) and ALL the aftermarket mags I have tried in it.
The best part of the deal was the P38. Deep original blue with SHARP, markings, down to the smallest waamts. Three digit code AC41 gun with really beautiful , red wine colored bakelite stocks.
I think the P38 alone was worth the price of admission.
It just goes to show that deals still come along...

alanint · 06-05-2008, 09:52 PM

Make that a "GAI, MIA, FL" marked Luger....

G.T. · 06-05-2008, 10:06 PM

Hello to all, No-one understands the value of patients and time better then a serious firearms collector... But with that being said, you can wait a lifetime for the right pistol, woman, or car to come around... And miss alot of fun cuz you only wanted a screaming bargain!!

I think the Luger pictured has quite a'bit going for it, and I'll throw in with Ron on this one and say it's probably worth the asking price... IF!!! You want a nice one to shoot.... "Want" is the key word in this equasion ... To sum it up, I've spent one hell of a lot more for one hell of a lot less.... But... I got better??

best to all, til...lat'r...GT

phatrick88 · 06-06-2008, 04:24 AM

So, how do you guys feel it would compare to this one as a shooter? Obviously is a mismatch, claimed excellent bore and shoots fine with 90% bluing.

I didn't want to start a new thread for this same topic...

Thanks guys.

06-04-2008, 11:16 PM	#1
phatrick88 User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: MN Posts: 54 Thanks: 7 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Opinions on this shooter? BYF 41 non-matching, seller claims excellent mechanical condition, $700. It's what I was looking for, a shooter from WWII with Nazi proofs. Is that price too high? How does the gun look? Opinions? Thanks guys. Attached Thumbnails

06-04-2008, 11:16 PM	#2
phatrick88 User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: MN Posts: 54 Thanks: 7 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Second pic: Attached Thumbnails

06-05-2008, 08:22 AM	#4
John Winter User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 55 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	If you're loking for a Luger with practically no investment potential, you seem to have found one. Prices are higher in the east, but around our area, that would be a pedigreed shooter priced at <$450. The escalating price of gasoline seems to be putting more guns on the market. My humble opinion would be to take in a gun show or two, and see what's available before spending that much on a candidate for a police evidence locker. __________________ JRW

06-05-2008, 10:31 AM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	The upper receiver may be from a byf 41, but the lower receiver (grip frame) while manufactured by Mauser is not a 1941... the P.08 that is normally stamped on the left side flat is missing... The grips are horrible and don't even match each other. The left side checkering looks like it was done by a convict with a contraband knife... I think $700 is a little too high for this one... take the guy less in cash and see if he will deal. If it shoots okay, some new grips would perk up the image a little, but I would not invest any money in refinishing it. Let us know how you make out. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-05-2008, 11:57 AM	#6
John Winter User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 55 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, You're certainly a gentleman. I would classify this gun as a lot of loose parts flying in close formation. Assuming that the magazine catch is fully engaged, there seems to be an excessive gap between the magazine bottom and the frame. Whether this is due to wear on the magazine release and/or the slot in the magazine body is hard to tell, but it could indicate a feeding problem which hopefully, didn't result in "throating."My opinion is that any money invested on improvements would ony compound a a situation in which the price is at least twice the realistic value of the gun. I strongly agree that cash can work wonders and I wish him luck. __________________ JRW

06-05-2008, 07:12 AM	#3
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	It doesn't look abused to me, so may make a fine shooter. Prices, have just gone crazy lately, I don't think $700 is all that bad. You could have a very long wait to find one in as good a shape and cheaper. They are out there but people are parting them out to make more money. A couple of months ago I sold my two Erfurt shooters for $500 each, they were buffed/sanded to death guns with almost no finish left of the cold bluing that was once applied. They sold very quickly; sure I only had $400 and $450 into them and made a little money but I think I could of made more. Now I am without a shooter luger and am faced with much higher prices to replace them. Do you have access to the gun? Make sure your getting an action that is not binding, the barrel looks replaced to me and that is good for a shooter but if they twisted the frame getting the old one off, it will be a pain to get it straighten again and cost you more dollars. Get a return policy. They are not going to let you shoot it, but you will be able to quickly tell if there is sever binding by cycling the action by hand and inspecting for internal ware. My two cents worth Vern

06-05-2008, 12:04 PM	#7
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I would ask to test fire it, I would not buy any used gun without that permission.....if it functions well, $700 is about as good as its going to get on a shooter...

06-05-2008, 12:07 PM	#8
John Winter User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 55 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Policeluger, Are you paying $700 for "shooter" Lugers? Please let me know. __________________ JRW

06-05-2008, 02:07 PM	#9
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	How interesting this difference in opinions on prices for shooter lugers! All I can say is, if members have nice shooter lugers they will part with in the $400 to $500 range please place adds here on the forum, we have new members who are looking to get into the hobby and want to start off with a good shooter. Those guns I got rid of just recently didn't look this good, they were bad, and they went fast! Vern

06-05-2008, 04:08 PM	#10
John Winter User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 55 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Vern, I know that prices are higher on the coasts, but there was a decent matching DWM with a rough but shootable bore walking around at the last big Tulsa show for $700, asking. Guess maybe I'm picky, but if it doesn't match, it's just parts to me and not worth the paperwork. About the only guns that bring any money around here are Colt SAA's and Winchesters and they frequently go to people from out of state. Shooter Lugers here don't bring much. Perhaps they're good trading material after all. __________________ JRW

06-05-2008, 05:49 PM	#11
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,503 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,640 Times in 1,002 Posts	Shooter Luger... The whole shooter Luger idea is an interesting study in value... First, it has to have a certain negitive degree of faults or condition to even enter this arena.... While matching numbers are always desirable, if it is a shooter, some serious cosmetic flaw, or lack of condition has already rendered this point to be nearly moot... So lets take the very best case scenario for a shooter, either a very nice original condition, either matching or non-matching... with, lets say a big nasty rust spot on the grip frame, or receiver.. I only used this for an example because I think we all hate rust equally... The pistol, to me, at this point, is only worth the retail value of the sum total of it's sellable / useable parts.... so lets break it down.... 75.00 to 100.00 for each the barrel, grips, sideplate, clip, frame and/or receiver, and small parts... maybe 125.00 for the toggle train... give or take 25.00 here and there depending on condition... it would seem that around $700.00 would be near the top end for any 4" barrel shooter, everything being pretty nice... Now, lets take a gun that is all buffed, reblued, rusted, or otherwise ugly to all but its mother! The parts can barely used for what they are now doing... it would seem that even $400.00 is a lot to ask?? I opted for a nice shooter, all made from byf parts, that were also nice... some assemblies match, some don't, but condition is all important to me..My shooter probably is at the $700.00 mark... but I would find it hard to ask more if I was going to sell... just a little different way to look at it, best to all, til...lat'r....GT

06-05-2008, 06:13 PM	#12
phatrick88 User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: MN Posts: 54 Thanks: 7 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	I must say, it's absolutely amazing how knowledable you guys are to be able to pick this gun apart with just two pictures. Per the seller, it only has two different serial numbers on it, so it doesn't sound like a total mismatch. Grips would be the first thing to go. Are new grips expensive and hard to come by? How would you rate the finish on this gun compared to other shooters? I'll see what I can do with the price, but it sounds like I shouldn't lose too much sleep if this one falls through. I just got my first Luger book in the mail today, i'm trying to learn as much as I can asap so I don't have to post every Luger i'm interested in for you guys to critique for me And yes, if anyone has a decent shooter they want to let go, let me know! --> phatrick88@yahoo.com Thanks guys! Attached Thumbnails

06-05-2008, 06:35 PM	#13
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	well we see how many listed their shooters in the 4/500 range....no I do not own a shooter grade, my collection is all Weimar police, 100% matching with each of the guns having at least one matching mag and some two, not not forced match but as technical correct and righteous as one can find, there are two major Weimar police Luger book in the works, and both writers are using my collection as part of the study...I but shooter when I find them and supply several local gun shops with such.....anybody with 4/500$$ shootes for sale that are worth a darm....

06-05-2008, 07:10 PM	#14
John Winter User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 55 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	phatrick88, After all, you did solicit opinions. In addition to grips, you'll need grip screws as well. The grips may require some fitting. Assuming that everything else functions, at $700 + tax, etc. and improvements, you will have invested a considerable amount into a shooter. Enjoy! __________________ JRW

06-05-2008, 09:31 PM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,016 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,162 Times in 1,699 Posts	I usually do not jump into discussions of value, but in this case I have to agree with Vern... "I don't think $700 is all that bad. You could have a very long wait to find one in as good a shape and cheaper". There is no way this gun only worth half the asking price, and in this day and age a $400 shooter (i.e. one that will really shoot and isn't a total bucket of rust) is a myth unless you happen to stumble across an unsuspecting widow with one at a yard sale. I would rather see this one at $600, but 6 months to a year from now it is going to seem like a bargain. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-05-2008, 09:49 PM	#16
John Winter User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 55 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I found a matching byf 41 in about 92% original condition for approximately the price of the Frankenluger being discussed at the llast Colorado Gun Collectors show and I wasn't the first dealer to look at it. An elixir of time and a tincture of patience can be invaluable assets when contemplating a collector firearm purchase. Junk is junk and will always be junk, I respect my fellow collectors too much to ever advise them to buy junk. __________________ JRW

06-05-2008, 09:50 PM	#17
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Just as an aside. I just bought an import marked, (AIG, Miami, Fl)1940 date 42 toggle Luger and a mint, matching AC41 P38. Both for $800. Unusual circumstances, granted. The owner was an aquaintance who was moving back to Argentina. The Luger is a dipped blue, (with almost no buffing), all matching on major components, with a forced side plate, serial # 6226H. The sear and safety have had the serials "dimpled out" and the grips are non-matching a a bit ratty. The best part is the gun shoots beautifully with both the accompanying mag, (B code and Waamt655, but serial buffed out) and ALL the aftermarket mags I have tried in it. The best part of the deal was the P38. Deep original blue with SHARP, markings, down to the smallest waamts. Three digit code AC41 gun with really beautiful , red wine colored bakelite stocks. I think the P38 alone was worth the price of admission. It just goes to show that deals still come along...

06-05-2008, 09:52 PM	#18
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Make that a "GAI, MIA, FL" marked Luger....

06-05-2008, 10:06 PM	#19
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,503 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,640 Times in 1,002 Posts	Shooter... Hello to all, No-one understands the value of patients and time better then a serious firearms collector... But with that being said, you can wait a lifetime for the right pistol, woman, or car to come around... And miss alot of fun cuz you only wanted a screaming bargain!! I think the Luger pictured has quite a'bit going for it, and I'll throw in with Ron on this one and say it's probably worth the asking price... IF!!! You want a nice one to shoot.... "Want" is the key word in this equasion ... To sum it up, I've spent one hell of a lot more for one hell of a lot less.... But... I got better?? best to all, til...lat'r...GT

06-06-2008, 04:24 AM	#20
phatrick88 User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: MN Posts: 54 Thanks: 7 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	So, how do you guys feel it would compare to this one as a shooter? Obviously is a mismatch, claimed excellent bore and shoots fine with 90% bluing. I didn't want to start a new thread for this same topic... Thanks guys.