What is a "Parabellum Pistol"???

sheepherder · 05-30-2011, 09:35 AM

I was looking for info on proof marks on a revolver I just purchased, and found a couple of .PDF pages taken from The Blue Book Of Gun Values...

https://store.bluebookinc.com/Home/Default.aspx

https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/P...Proofmarks.pdf

This one is at PIA and seems to be somewhat older -

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com...Proofmarks.pdf

Here's a screenshot of one example of which I am confused...[pic below]...

"since 1891" indicates that they started putting this proof on "parabellum pistols" starting in 1891...before there was a "Luger"...

So...just what is a "Parabellum Pistol"???

Ron Smith · 05-30-2011, 09:56 AM

Rich,

"Parabellum" latin for "Prepare for War". Parabellum was adopted by the Germans to indicate a Military pistol or revolver, as opposed to a commercial pistol or revolver. For example the 9mm Parabellum (Luger) cartridge was developed for use by the military as a combat cartridge.

Ron

Lugerdoc · 05-30-2011, 10:06 AM

I agree, in this context it means "military" pistols. Since the end of WW1, when Stoeger purchased the rights to the name "luger", "THE PARABELLUM" has become recognized as another term for a luger. TH

sheepherder · 05-30-2011, 10:38 AM

Thank You, gentlemen! That sounds entirely logical!

I have a revolver in transit which was described as a "commercial/civilian" Austrian revolver but which has the "NPv" proof mark on it in several places...

Vlim · 05-30-2011, 12:18 PM

It is also somewhat flawed

Ron is correct in stating that the Parabellum brand name was derived from a latin phrase.

DWM intended to use the 'Parabellum' brand name for marketing their military products. They also used it as their telegraph address for quite a while.

The Maxim machinegun they built under license from Vickers was marketed as the Parabellum Machine gun. The luger as the Parabellum Pistol.

So initially it was a brand name, not a product name. But it gradually shifted from brand name towards product name.

'Parabellum' was only the telegraph name for the Berlin office of DWM. Karlsruhe used a different name ('Patronenfabrik KarlsruheBaden)

Ron Wood · 05-30-2011, 12:41 PM

Thanks Gerben. I was scrambling to find the necessary quotes and references to post that info and you saved me the trouble!

sheepherder · 05-30-2011, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

DWM intended to use the 'Parabellum' brand name for marketing their military products...So initially it was a brand name...

So was the 1891 Austrian proof house referring to DWM products rather than a generic 'military' definition???

Vlim · 05-30-2011, 02:29 PM

Hmm, I think that the 'Blue Book' described an interesting interpretation of the Vienna proof laws.

The separate 'nitro proof' was introduced at European proof houses when the smokeless nitro based powders became available. This was done in Austria-Hungary as well, by decree, in 1899 (not 1891). This was an extension of the original proof law, which was based on black powder use alone, and that original law was introduced in 1891.

So, if you have a luger with an NPv proof marking, it only shows that it was proofed in Vienna some time after 1899. This was in use from 1899 - 1940 (when the Germans visited) and reinstated in 1945-1951. Between 1940-1945 the German proof laws were used.

05-30-2011, 09:35 AM	#1
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	What is a "Parabellum Pistol"??? I was looking for info on proof marks on a revolver I just purchased, and found a couple of .PDF pages taken from The Blue Book Of Gun Values... https://store.bluebookinc.com/Home/Default.aspx https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/P...Proofmarks.pdf This one is at PIA and seems to be somewhat older - http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com...Proofmarks.pdf Here's a screenshot of one example of which I am confused...[pic below]... "since 1891" indicates that they started putting this proof on "parabellum pistols" starting in 1891...before there was a "Luger"... So...just what is a "Parabellum Pistol"??? Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

05-30-2011, 09:56 AM	#2
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Rich, "Parabellum" latin for "Prepare for War". Parabellum was adopted by the Germans to indicate a Military pistol or revolver, as opposed to a commercial pistol or revolver. For example the 9mm Parabellum (Luger) cartridge was developed for use by the military as a combat cartridge. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-30-2011, 10:06 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I agree, in this context it means "military" pistols. Since the end of WW1, when Stoeger purchased the rights to the name "luger", "THE PARABELLUM" has become recognized as another term for a luger. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

05-30-2011, 10:38 AM	#4
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Thank You, gentlemen! That sounds entirely logical! I have a revolver in transit which was described as a "commercial/civilian" Austrian revolver but which has the "NPv" proof mark on it in several places... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

05-30-2011, 12:18 PM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,049 Thanks: 1,035 Thanked 3,957 Times in 1,200 Posts	It is also somewhat flawed Ron is correct in stating that the Parabellum brand name was derived from a latin phrase. DWM intended to use the 'Parabellum' brand name for marketing their military products. They also used it as their telegraph address for quite a while. The Maxim machinegun they built under license from Vickers was marketed as the Parabellum Machine gun. The luger as the Parabellum Pistol. So initially it was a brand name, not a product name. But it gradually shifted from brand name towards product name. 'Parabellum' was only the telegraph name for the Berlin office of DWM. Karlsruhe used a different name ('Patronenfabrik KarlsruheBaden) Attached Thumbnails

05-30-2011, 12:41 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,992 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,101 Times in 1,678 Posts	Thanks Gerben. I was scrambling to find the necessary quotes and references to post that info and you saved me the trouble! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-30-2011, 02:29 PM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,049 Thanks: 1,035 Thanked 3,957 Times in 1,200 Posts	Hmm, I think that the 'Blue Book' described an interesting interpretation of the Vienna proof laws. The separate 'nitro proof' was introduced at European proof houses when the smokeless nitro based powders became available. This was done in Austria-Hungary as well, by decree, in 1899 (not 1891). This was an extension of the original proof law, which was based on black powder use alone, and that original law was introduced in 1891. So, if you have a luger with an NPv proof marking, it only shows that it was proofed in Vienna some time after 1899. This was in use from 1899 - 1940 (when the Germans visited) and reinstated in 1945-1951. Between 1940-1945 the German proof laws were used.