Question of ethics

[Hugh]

OK, lets open this can of worms and see what crawls out. [img]confused.gif[/img]

I have a Simpson Police Luger with both sear safety and magazine safety, but the magazine safety has been cut.

I just purchased a complete magazine safety. When I install this safety in my gun to restore it to the original Police configuration, have I "boosted' or "faked" my gun? Or is this considered an acceptable substitute by collectors?

Is my gun now considered to have a "non original part" and lower collector value, or have I increased its value?

Comments and opinions expected and welcomed.
[img]rolleyes.gif[/img]

[wterrell]

Hugh,

If you do not tell anybody, you have just increased the value of the piece.

You have probably just increased the value, at any rate, because of the value of the intact safety, plus the value of your pistol.

But I would urge you not to let the cat out of the bag. Tell everyone that it is original, and they will have the devil of a time proving otherwise!

(But that is just between you and me!)

To be realistic, that safety will migrate, eventually, from a good condition pistol to a fine condition pistol, then to an excellent condition pistol, whether or not was original to your pistol. And your pistol will have its previous value again. So, do not agonize over it.

[Dwight Gruber]

Hugh,

This is a very interesting question.

First thing off, you have just increased the value of your Luger by the part value of the mag safety, if nothing else (an obvious conclusion, but a necessary starting place). Since you are putting a part on your gun which "belongs" there (but was damaged before), you are increasing its value due to completeness; since it is an original part it is neither "faked" nor "forged". Since it is not a serial-numbered part, you are not "boosting" it in a commonly accepted meaning of the term.

Since the topic is ethics, you have a responsibility to tell a future purchaser of the gun that the mag safety has been replaced. They will most likely say thanks for telling me, and then pay for the value which appertains because of a complete mag safey. If they share your ethical values they will pass on this information when they sell it.

Of course, you could stamp it with a triangle of little red dots (don't hurt me, Thor!).

For my own part, I would say that you have come upon one of the few perfectly acceptable circumstances to complete a Luger and increase its value. Another thing strikes me: I saw the auction lot of parts from which you obtained the mag safety. If you personally had robbed it from a lesser-quality Luger to put in a greater one, I would consider that unethical. In that vein, it would be "better" if you were putting this part in a gun which had had its mag safety completely removed, rather than just cut.

--Dwight

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Hugh,

If I were in your shoes, I think I would put the 100% magazine safety into a police luger of my choice and then represent it, to a future buyer, as a historically correct, original replacement part.

I think I could sleep well with that...

p.s. Another option; put that little piece of metal on auction with a opening bid of $ 450.00 and see what happens...I think these are rare at 100% intact, so you might be surprised what some folks would pay for one...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

[Hugh]

Pete,

I was surprised at what I was willing to pay for one! But having never seen one for sale before, and never having seen a gun with a complete one on it, I am intrigued with the prospect. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

[wterrell]

What is driving the trade in spare parts? We see complete cannon assemblies on auction, piles of assorted and misc. parts. There is always a person mentioning 'parting out' a Luger.
Here on the Lugerforum, people ask for parts with certain numbers on them, and shooters to dissassemble.
Why should we worry about boosted lugers?

[quote] great Luger sideplate, unstamped new condition.Copleete assampled with trigger level......... Money as cash in a letter please <hr></blockquote>(sic)

[Heinz]

Hugh

I think we need to worry about what is honest and what is not in terms of the historical honesty of the piece.

An outstanding example of this is currently visible in the forum classifieds. One of our members has two adds running, One lists a 1915 DWM artillery cut down and adapted to Police configuration. The other add lists holsters, one of which is a 1915 artillery cut down for Post WWI use. He did not stick these two together with the magic "rig" word or slam a Serial number into the holster. That is a man with style, who I have bought from before and will again.

[MauserLugers]

Hi Hugh,
First, congratulations on the find.
Next, as I remember, on the old forum this was discussed and the general opinion was that swapping parts was a no-no, and made the gun non-original. I personally do not agree with that opinion all the time. If you have a trigger that is mis-matched, and you find the same number, style, blue, from the same manufacture, I do not think anyone is able to tell the difference,.... but you, and you are actually just restoring the piece, in my opinion.

Now, you did not state if your Simson is a rework or a new manufactured Simson Police. If it is a new manufactured Simson police, I do not think you should put the intact magazine safety on as all I have seen have been either clipped or completely removed. Also, the clipped magazine safety is the original safety for this piece, and changing it is actually replacing an original correct part, rather than replacing a mismatched part. Once someone starts replacing original, correct parts, just for cosmetic purposes, then you can justify just about any change as it becomes all about the money and not the history or the thrill of collecting.

[Hugh]

Bill,

It is an original Simpson, has Simpson & Suhl on the front toggle, undated chamber, and E6 on parts. It does not have any police property marks on the grip straps however.

So it might be more "authentic" to put this safety on an Erfurt or DWM Police instead? [img]confused.gif[/img]

[Herb]

Hugh, do it. I feel that you are not doing anything that a unit (police) armorer would have done in the event that it broke during the time it was in service. If one buys a Luger minus a side plate, then finds a side plate to fit it and installs it, is that faking or boosting, I don't think so. How many of us have replaced a broken spring or other small part that was missing or broken, that, IMO is not faking or boosting. When I see a Luger for sale from Shattuck or Simpson that says all matching with a replaced safety lever pin, I'll change my thinking.

[MauserLugers]

Hi,
A point of interest on the magazine safety is that it was a requirement to remove or clip this devise by orders dated 1937. So... a clipped magazine safety or removed safety is actually the way your Simson should be found. My point being that you are not actually replacing a broken part here.

You can put it on any police Luger and it would be correct intact. Point being that I'm not aware of another Simson with an intact magazine safety. I am aware of one G-date police and numerous Weimar police reworks.

[wterrell]

[quote] It is an original Simpson <hr></blockquote>

Hugh, will you be able to assert that statement after you install the safety?

[Hugh]

Wes,

I cannot assert that statement now because the magazine serial number does not match the gun.

[Heinz]

Hugh, Fred Datig, in his early text on Lugers states that not one Luger in a hundred is likely to have a matching magazine. Is it not amazing how matching magazines has become common in the last 40 years?

[Dwight Gruber]

[quote]Originally posted by Heinz:
<strong>Hugh, Fred Datig, in his early text on Lugers states that not one Luger in a hundred is likely to have a matching magazine. Is it not amazing how matching magazines has become common in the last 40 years?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm not sure that it needs to be amazing. Some speculative questioning with applied logic follows:

Of the many Lugers which have shown up with matching magazines, how many of them are Police models? It would seem that many of these guns receive a "second chance" to have matching mags due to their reissue. This relative youth (compared particularly to Imperial Lugers), the fact that the reissue is usually two (and sometimes three) mags, and their use in civil circumstances as opposed to combat; these circumstances would seem to increase the odds that at least one matching magazine would find itself carried along with the gun over the years.

Do East German and Russian reworks and dipped guns tend to retain matching magazines? A straight question, I do not know the answer but I suspect that some Forum members might.

What is the matching magazine data from other recent import floods from places such as Finland?

Is it possible that circumstances such as these represent sampling which was not available to Datig, and might increase the overall percentage?

There is another side to this coin.

Heinz, what observations prompt you to conclude that matching magazines have become "common"?

My own observations come from dealer advertising and a modest sampling from gun shows, local gun and pawn shops, my own small collection, and an occasional look at another collectors' pieces.

Dealer selections usually feature higher-end Lugers, which frequently have matching magazines--this in itself adds to the gun's high-end collectibity, and liklihood that the gun will be featured (yes, a circular circumstance).

Actual guns I observe seem to have a much lower frequency of matching magazines than dealer advertisements. And there are many thousands--tens of thousands, perhaps--of Lugers out there which go un-observed.

It is very likely that the sample which promotes the feeling that matching magazines are common is quite skewed, and Datig may very well be on the mark.

--Dwight