Fat Barrel AE To Watch...

Pete Ebbink · 08-03-2006, 02:11 PM

This one looks Phat...as the youngsters say :

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=53462250

drbuster · 08-03-2006, 08:31 PM

If I am not mistaken, I don't think this is the first "go round" for this piece. Notice the Navy magazine with it!

maddog350gt · 08-04-2006, 10:54 AM

Pete & drbuster;

Any thoughts on this one? I don't see the Germany export stamp and the numbers in the serial on the front of the frame are out of line. I don't know much about Fat Barrels, other than I love to own one if I could afford it. It did get me to thinking about how I would spot a fake, and I wasn't sure what to look for. Suggestions from the Forum would be appreciated.

Bob M.

Pete Ebbink · 08-04-2006, 11:42 AM

Hi Bob,

It is hard to tell from the photos, but my guess is that this one has an old refinish.

The "343" stamping on the front of the frame that looks newer than the "22" in front of them does seem to indicate the "343" might have been restamped if the original numbers were sanded down too much and had to be restamped. I think the "343" fonts look a bit more modern that the fonts of the "22".

Maybe the Germany was lost during the rework.

Ron Wood · 08-04-2006, 12:39 PM

I think that it is very likely that the entire number was re-stamped. The style of the font is OK, but looks a bit larger than original. Mine is stamped with a fairly small font (haven't measured it) and all in line straight as an arrow with none of the numbers slanted. It is also runs parallel across the frame and not canted as this example.

The BUG proofs on the barrel of an '02 are struck before final finish and are very light. So if this one has been re-done, the proofs probably are gone just like the GERMANY stamp.

As you have guessed, it probably is an old refinish. Still a scarce gun and worth having if the price reflects the refinish.

Pete Ebbink · 08-04-2006, 03:23 PM

Hi Ron,

What are your thoughts about the "why & when" of 3-digit serial numbing of small parts came to be ?

I have heard three theories :

1. A 3-digit part is a replacement.

2. 3-digit parts started being stamped (versus 2-digits) when the commerical serial numbering rolled over into the 5-digit range.

3. When DWM may have had more than 100 guns running through their production line at the same time; the 3-digit parts were so stamped to keep them separate and matched to the other parts belonging to a 2-digit gun. For example... let's say one week guns # 2510 through # 2620 were being produced. Gun # 2510 would have its small parts commerically stamped as "10" while gun number # 2610 would have its small parts commericall stamped as "610"...so they would not get mixed up during that batch run.

Ron Wood · 08-04-2006, 06:49 PM

Pete,

I havenÃ¢??t the slightest idea.

I would rule out #1 since I have seen early Lugers with the sideplate, rear of the toggle, and recoil lug numbered with three digits. That would be a lot of replacement parts on one gun.

The second option doesnÃ¢??t seem likely since there are a lot of 5-digit Lugers out there with only the last two numbers on the small parts.

I guess that leaves us with #3 for the time being, unless someone with real insight into the workings of DWM can give us a better explanation.

drbuster · 08-05-2006, 10:05 PM

I think the magazine bottom photographs were added later and show "Cal 9mm" stampings, which combined with concentric circles, make the magazine from a commercial Navy luger, a rarity in its own right and certainly worth more than just a "common" Cal 9mm stamped plain bottom magazine!

Pete Ebbink · 08-06-2006, 12:24 AM

Doc,

I would worry some about the magazine with this FB...it does not look quite right.

Here is that photo and two others from the Navy Cabal guys posted in the past :

drbuster · 08-06-2006, 09:17 AM

I agree, Pete. There are many "repro" Cal 9mm magazines out there but This would be the first with concentric rgings that I have seen. Still an easy task to perform for WaffenfabrikUSA.

George Anderson · 08-06-2006, 02:07 PM

I wouldn't touch either the mag or the pistol. They both have the stink of the neighboring state "the Land of a Thousand Fakes".

drbuster · 08-06-2006, 02:44 PM

George, the reek of this stink has reached as far west as the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia!

Pete Ebbink · 08-09-2006, 08:40 PM

Here is another photo that shows a good magazine :

And the repro junk sold as original on e-Bay :

Tony S. · 08-11-2006, 06:13 PM

Should the word "Germany" be under the serial number? It is hard to tell from the pics.
Tony S.

Ron Wood · 08-11-2006, 07:45 PM

Tony,
Yes, it should be marked GERMANY under the serial number on the front of the frame.

Michael Thomas · 08-23-2006, 02:30 PM

Hi Guys, I will be looking at a Fat Barrel later this week... the owner doesn't know when it was made.. is there only an 02 version or could it be and 06 fat barrel? Thanks

Ron Wood · 08-23-2006, 03:31 PM

It is easy to tell the difference between an '02 and an '06 9mm Luger. An '02 has the old model flat mainspring and dished toggle knobs. The '06 is a new model with a coil mainspring and flat toggle knobs. Also, the '06 barrel is not "fat".

Michael Thomas · 08-23-2006, 06:14 PM

Do you mean ..not as fat, or it was not made in a fat barrel arrangement?

Michael Thomas · 08-23-2006, 06:15 PM

Or do you mean ... not as Phat!

maddog350gt · 08-27-2006, 04:17 AM

Pete, Ron, Drbuster, Tony, et all;

I have been out of the country and just got back. I had trouble with my computer and didn't have full access to the net while I was gone. Just wanted to thank you all for the information on the FB. It will be a while before I try to purchase one of these unless I hit the lottery (and to do that I'd have to buy a ticket), but I do appreciate the information.

Thanks again,
Bob M.

08-04-2006, 12:39 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	I think that it is very likely that the entire number was re-stamped. The style of the font is OK, but looks a bit larger than original. Mine is stamped with a fairly small font (haven't measured it) and all in line straight as an arrow with none of the numbers slanted. It is also runs parallel across the frame and not canted as this example. The BUG proofs on the barrel of an '02 are struck before final finish and are very light. So if this one has been re-done, the proofs probably are gone just like the GERMANY stamp. As you have guessed, it probably is an old refinish. Still a scarce gun and worth having if the price reflects the refinish. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-04-2006, 06:49 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	Pete, I havenÃ¢??t the slightest idea. I would rule out #1 since I have seen early Lugers with the sideplate, rear of the toggle, and recoil lug numbered with three digits. That would be a lot of replacement parts on one gun. The second option doesnÃ¢??t seem likely since there are a lot of 5-digit Lugers out there with only the last two numbers on the small parts. I guess that leaves us with #3 for the time being, unless someone with real insight into the workings of DWM can give us a better explanation. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-11-2006, 07:45 PM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	Tony, Yes, it should be marked GERMANY under the serial number on the front of the frame. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-23-2006, 03:31 PM	#17
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	It is easy to tell the difference between an '02 and an '06 9mm Luger. An '02 has the old model flat mainspring and dished toggle knobs. The '06 is a new model with a coil mainspring and flat toggle knobs. Also, the '06 barrel is not "fat". __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-03-2006, 02:11 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Fat Barrel AE To Watch... This one looks Phat...as the youngsters say : http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=53462250

08-03-2006, 08:31 PM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	If I am not mistaken, I don't think this is the first "go round" for this piece. Notice the Navy magazine with it!

08-04-2006, 10:54 AM	#3
maddog350gt User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Pete & drbuster; Any thoughts on this one? I don't see the Germany export stamp and the numbers in the serial on the front of the frame are out of line. I don't know much about Fat Barrels, other than I love to own one if I could afford it. It did get me to thinking about how I would spot a fake, and I wasn't sure what to look for. Suggestions from the Forum would be appreciated. Bob M.

08-04-2006, 11:42 AM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Bob, It is hard to tell from the photos, but my guess is that this one has an old refinish. The "343" stamping on the front of the frame that looks newer than the "22" in front of them does seem to indicate the "343" might have been restamped if the original numbers were sanded down too much and had to be restamped. I think the "343" fonts look a bit more modern that the fonts of the "22". Maybe the Germany was lost during the rework.

08-04-2006, 03:23 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hi Ron, What are your thoughts about the "why & when" of 3-digit serial numbing of small parts came to be ? I have heard three theories : 1. A 3-digit part is a replacement. 2. 3-digit parts started being stamped (versus 2-digits) when the commerical serial numbering rolled over into the 5-digit range. 3. When DWM may have had more than 100 guns running through their production line at the same time; the 3-digit parts were so stamped to keep them separate and matched to the other parts belonging to a 2-digit gun. For example... let's say one week guns # 2510 through # 2620 were being produced. Gun # 2510 would have its small parts commerically stamped as "10" while gun number # 2610 would have its small parts commericall stamped as "610"...so they would not get mixed up during that batch run.

08-05-2006, 10:05 PM	#8
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	I think the magazine bottom photographs were added later and show "Cal 9mm" stampings, which combined with concentric circles, make the magazine from a commercial Navy luger, a rarity in its own right and certainly worth more than just a "common" Cal 9mm stamped plain bottom magazine!

08-06-2006, 12:24 AM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Doc, I would worry some about the magazine with this FB...it does not look quite right. Here is that photo and two others from the Navy Cabal guys posted in the past :

08-06-2006, 09:17 AM	#10
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	I agree, Pete. There are many "repro" Cal 9mm magazines out there but This would be the first with concentric rgings that I have seen. Still an easy task to perform for WaffenfabrikUSA.

08-06-2006, 02:07 PM	#11
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	I wouldn't touch either the mag or the pistol. They both have the stink of the neighboring state "the Land of a Thousand Fakes".

08-06-2006, 02:44 PM	#12
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	George, the reek of this stink has reached as far west as the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia!

08-09-2006, 08:40 PM	#13
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Here is another photo that shows a good magazine : And the repro junk sold as original on e-Bay :

08-11-2006, 06:13 PM	#14
Tony S. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Virginia Posts: 173 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Should the word "Germany" be under the serial number? It is hard to tell from the pics. Tony S.

08-23-2006, 02:30 PM	#16
Michael Thomas User Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 10 Thanks: 2 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Hi Guys, I will be looking at a Fat Barrel later this week... the owner doesn't know when it was made.. is there only an 02 version or could it be and 06 fat barrel? Thanks

08-23-2006, 06:14 PM	#18
Michael Thomas User Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 10 Thanks: 2 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Do you mean ..not as fat, or it was not made in a fat barrel arrangement?

08-23-2006, 06:15 PM	#19
Michael Thomas User Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 10 Thanks: 2 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Or do you mean ... not as Phat!

08-27-2006, 04:17 AM	#20
maddog350gt User Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Pete, Ron, Drbuster, Tony, et all; I have been out of the country and just got back. I had trouble with my computer and didn't have full access to the net while I was gone. Just wanted to thank you all for the information on the FB. It will be a while before I try to purchase one of these unless I hit the lottery (and to do that I'd have to buy a ticket), but I do appreciate the information. Thanks again, Bob M.