What's wrong with this rig?

Michael Zeleny · 05-19-2011, 05:56 PM

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=230310112

Aside from the location of the seller, I see a few odd features.

saab-bob · 05-19-2011, 06:10 PM

Mike
The Trommel magazines came in a canvas holder?
Bob

Ron Wood · 05-19-2011, 06:36 PM

The stock and all of the leather are reproduction.

lugerholsterrepair · 05-19-2011, 07:09 PM

Ron is correct of course...You would think the seller would clean the pistol since he has it apart!
Pistol $2000
snail drum $1200
Loader $800-1000 BIG IF it's an original.

Rest junk..$200 max... more likely who would want it?

$42-4500 would be top dollar. I think the guy is asking WAY too much.

Michael Zeleny · 05-19-2011, 10:47 PM

Thanks for the comments. Does anyone see anything wrong with the pistol?

sheepherder · 05-19-2011, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Zeleny

Thanks for the comments. Does anyone see anything wrong with the pistol?

Doesn't seem to have a notch for the sight...

silverknife · 05-19-2011, 11:27 PM

On one of the custom knife boards I hang out on, when we see a knife offered in an on-line auction which generates discussion about its bona fides we will sometimes send the seller a link to the thread and invite the seller to respond to the concerns being expressed. The results have been mixed in terms of the seller's response. Sometimes it is cordial and professional, sometimes, as you might imagine, not so cordial, professional or respectful. Has that been done here? Is it something worth considering?

Regards,
Doug

lugerholsterrepair · 05-20-2011, 12:07 AM

Doug..we will sometimes send the seller a link. Sure..do it if you have the time or inclanation. You are right..there will be mixed responses!

silverknife · 05-20-2011, 12:37 AM

We have found on the knife board that frequently the seller is unaware that the knife he is offering is not what he thought it was and that he was scammed when he purchased it. Obviously that is an easy out but I think that often it is true. When that occurs the seller either removes the item from sale or amends his ad to acknowledge that the knife has been altered after it left the maker's shop, or was not ever in the maker's shop to begin with. Of course there have been other, more colorful and less measured responses as well.

I sent the seller the following message through GunBroker:

"There are some concerns regarding the originality of this rig being expressed on a Luger Forum where I am a member.-

http://www.lugerforum.com/
Artillery Lugers "What's wrong with this rig"

If you wish to respond, please feel free to do so.

Regards,
Doug

DavidJayUden · 05-20-2011, 12:40 AM

I have bought one gun from Joseph. A WW2 Luger. No surprises or disappointments.
dju

silverknife · 05-20-2011, 11:58 AM

The seller responded as follows:

"I am not a Luger collector or so called expert that some claim to be and seem to be able to tell from a couple of pictures. What I can tell you is that I am selling this for and am personally acquainted and have known for years the man who bought this as a set in the 1960's when there would have been no financial advantage to reproducing the items. Also the stock has writing in Farsi (Iranian or Persian) by the attachment lug and I doubt that the Iranians were reproducing Luger things.
I hope this helps.
Joe S"

George Anderson · 05-20-2011, 12:19 PM

I believe I saw this set in Tulsa, am I correct?

Ron Smith · 05-20-2011, 01:28 PM

One "Blanket sized" red flag is the belt loop on the Repro holster, which is only found on reproductions.

lugerholsterrepair · 05-20-2011, 01:51 PM

am personally acquainted and have known for years the man who bought this as a set in the 1960's when there would have been no financial advantage to reproducing the items.

Reproductions started in 1917 when Walt Disney started painting helmets for resale and they have geared up ever since. In the 60's reproductions were prolific.

As Ron points out the holster is without doubt a reproduction as is the snail drum carrier and why leave out the stock leathers?

I am not a Luger collector or so called expert that some claim to be and seem to be able to tell from a couple of pictures. A monkey in a dark room could see what we all see here.

alanint · 05-20-2011, 02:01 PM

That stitching must give you nightmares, Jerry! Is the cleaning rod real?

I still can't find any serious fault with the pistol. The rear sight seems to seat far enough down for there to be a receiver cutout for it.

lugerholsterrepair · 05-20-2011, 02:06 PM

Doug, No the cleaning rod is a $9.99 beer barrel reproduction. Original rod wood barrels are very slim.

One of the tough facts of life is that if you see one good item in a pile of junk it is very difficult to pry it out of a sellers hands. The sellers rarely want to let loose of the good item hoping it will help to sell the junk.

Norme · 05-20-2011, 03:10 PM

Hi Jerry, I've never handled a Persian rig, could this be one? The Type 1 trommel and dust cover look nice and are worth close to $2,000.00. Even if the loading tool is a repro, it's worth $500.00. Best regards, Norm

lugerholsterrepair · 05-20-2011, 03:33 PM

Norm, I can't say about the stock and I would ask if the iron is serialed in Farsi. You would want to see very good photo's of all angles. With good photo's you could determine what's what but I wouldn't bet on it being authentic.

The rest of the leathers..bogus and attached to any stock would make me suspicious.

So for sure..it's not a persian RIG. $2500 + 2000 for the pistol..still $4500!

But good luck with the seller..he seems reluctant to hear the truth from what Doug posted.

Norme · 05-20-2011, 03:50 PM

Hi Jerry, Once again, I'm no expert on Persian Lugers, but I seem to recall that the stocks were numbered (in Farsi) in the wood, and not on the iron. Anyone out there know for sure? Regards, Norm

lugerholsterrepair · 05-20-2011, 04:00 PM

A fellow by the name of Murray in New Zealand looked for years for an authentic Persian and after many fakes finally found one. I don't know either but I wouldn't get my hopes up.
At any rate let me know if the seller will provide any photo's of the stock.

I blew up the photo as much as I could and I think the 4 strap slots are beveled all way round. I would want a close photo of these. On old stocks usually the top of the slot is beveled from strap wear. On reproductions they conveniently beveled them 360 degrees. Originals started out life with NO bevel whatever.

05-19-2011, 05:56 PM	#1
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	What's wrong with this rig? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=230310112 Aside from the location of the seller, I see a few odd features. __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

05-19-2011, 06:10 PM	#2
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Mike The Trommel magazines came in a canvas holder? Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

05-19-2011, 06:36 PM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,019 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,173 Times in 1,701 Posts	The stock and all of the leather are reproduction. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

05-19-2011, 07:09 PM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,926 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Ron is correct of course...You would think the seller would clean the pistol since he has it apart! Pistol $2000 snail drum $1200 Loader $800-1000 BIG IF it's an original. Rest junk..$200 max... more likely who would want it? $42-4500 would be top dollar. I think the guy is asking WAY too much. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-19-2011, 10:47 PM	#5
Michael Zeleny Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 525 Thanks: 129 Thanked 139 Times in 76 Posts	Thanks for the comments. Does anyone see anything wrong with the pistol? __________________ Michael Zeleny@post.harvard.edu -- http://larvatus.livejournal.com/ -- 7576 Willow Glen Road, Los Angeles, CA 90046 -- 323.363.1860 All of old. Nothing else ever. Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better. -- Samuel Beckett

05-19-2011, 11:27 PM	#7
silverknife User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Western New York Posts: 78 Thanks: 11 Thanked 19 Times in 13 Posts	On one of the custom knife boards I hang out on, when we see a knife offered in an on-line auction which generates discussion about its bona fides we will sometimes send the seller a link to the thread and invite the seller to respond to the concerns being expressed. The results have been mixed in terms of the seller's response. Sometimes it is cordial and professional, sometimes, as you might imagine, not so cordial, professional or respectful. Has that been done here? Is it something worth considering? Regards, Doug __________________ Need #23 side plate & toggle axle pin and #01 hold open.

05-20-2011, 12:07 AM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,926 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Doug..we will sometimes send the seller a link. Sure..do it if you have the time or inclanation. You are right..there will be mixed responses! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-20-2011, 12:37 AM	#9
silverknife User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Western New York Posts: 78 Thanks: 11 Thanked 19 Times in 13 Posts	We have found on the knife board that frequently the seller is unaware that the knife he is offering is not what he thought it was and that he was scammed when he purchased it. Obviously that is an easy out but I think that often it is true. When that occurs the seller either removes the item from sale or amends his ad to acknowledge that the knife has been altered after it left the maker's shop, or was not ever in the maker's shop to begin with. Of course there have been other, more colorful and less measured responses as well. I sent the seller the following message through GunBroker: "There are some concerns regarding the originality of this rig being expressed on a Luger Forum where I am a member.- http://www.lugerforum.com/ Artillery Lugers "What's wrong with this rig" If you wish to respond, please feel free to do so. Regards, Doug __________________ Need #23 side plate & toggle axle pin and #01 hold open.

05-20-2011, 12:40 AM	#10
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I have bought one gun from Joseph. A WW2 Luger. No surprises or disappointments. dju

05-20-2011, 11:58 AM	#11
silverknife User Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Western New York Posts: 78 Thanks: 11 Thanked 19 Times in 13 Posts	The seller responded as follows: "I am not a Luger collector or so called expert that some claim to be and seem to be able to tell from a couple of pictures. What I can tell you is that I am selling this for and am personally acquainted and have known for years the man who bought this as a set in the 1960's when there would have been no financial advantage to reproducing the items. Also the stock has writing in Farsi (Iranian or Persian) by the attachment lug and I doubt that the Iranians were reproducing Luger things. I hope this helps. Joe S" __________________ Need #23 side plate & toggle axle pin and #01 hold open.

05-20-2011, 12:19 PM	#12
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	I believe I saw this set in Tulsa, am I correct?

05-20-2011, 01:28 PM	#13
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	One "Blanket sized" red flag is the belt loop on the Repro holster, which is only found on reproductions. Attached Thumbnails __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-20-2011, 01:51 PM	#14
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,926 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	am personally acquainted and have known for years the man who bought this as a set in the 1960's when there would have been no financial advantage to reproducing the items. Reproductions started in 1917 when Walt Disney started painting helmets for resale and they have geared up ever since. In the 60's reproductions were prolific. As Ron points out the holster is without doubt a reproduction as is the snail drum carrier and why leave out the stock leathers? I am not a Luger collector or so called expert that some claim to be and seem to be able to tell from a couple of pictures. A monkey in a dark room could see what we all see here. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-20-2011, 02:01 PM	#15
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	That stitching must give you nightmares, Jerry! Is the cleaning rod real? I still can't find any serious fault with the pistol. The rear sight seems to seat far enough down for there to be a receiver cutout for it.

05-20-2011, 02:06 PM	#16
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,926 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Doug, No the cleaning rod is a $9.99 beer barrel reproduction. Original rod wood barrels are very slim. One of the tough facts of life is that if you see one good item in a pile of junk it is very difficult to pry it out of a sellers hands. The sellers rarely want to let loose of the good item hoping it will help to sell the junk. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-20-2011, 03:10 PM	#17
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Jerry, I've never handled a Persian rig, could this be one? The Type 1 trommel and dust cover look nice and are worth close to $2,000.00. Even if the loading tool is a repro, it's worth $500.00. Best regards, Norm

05-20-2011, 03:33 PM	#18
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,926 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Norm, I can't say about the stock and I would ask if the iron is serialed in Farsi. You would want to see very good photo's of all angles. With good photo's you could determine what's what but I wouldn't bet on it being authentic. The rest of the leathers..bogus and attached to any stock would make me suspicious. So for sure..it's not a persian RIG. $2500 + 2000 for the pistol..still $4500! But good luck with the seller..he seems reluctant to hear the truth from what Doug posted. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-20-2011, 03:50 PM	#19
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Jerry, Once again, I'm no expert on Persian Lugers, but I seem to recall that the stocks were numbered (in Farsi) in the wood, and not on the iron. Anyone out there know for sure? Regards, Norm

05-20-2011, 04:00 PM	#20
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,926 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	A fellow by the name of Murray in New Zealand looked for years for an authentic Persian and after many fakes finally found one. I don't know either but I wouldn't get my hopes up. At any rate let me know if the seller will provide any photo's of the stock. I blew up the photo as much as I could and I think the 4 strap slots are beveled all way round. I would want a close photo of these. On old stocks usually the top of the slot is beveled from strap wear. On reproductions they conveniently beveled them 360 degrees. Originals started out life with NO bevel whatever. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."