Eric needs help with ID an usual rifle~~

[cirelaw]

I bought this at a gunshow in the 80s in Pa. It weighs a ton~~Any help with what it is!! Eric

[Bluff Lake 36]

Eric- I believe you have a Yugoslavian Model 1948 98k Short Rifle. You are correct with the weight. It is 10#. The caliber is 7.92x57mm. The crest is the Communist Yugoslavian on the receiver ring.
Hope this helps.

[Sergio Natali]

Eric

I had one of them together with my collection of K98k
It's some sort of Mauser K98K made in Jugoslavia immediately after the WWII

Nice gun.

Sergio

[Sergio Natali]

Eric

I post some picturesmof the same sort of gun, the first four of them belong to a M48 made at the Kragujevac Arsenal marked "Preduzece44" with German K98K parts, and the remaining two pictures belong to a Zastava M48A that used to be made from 1952 until 1965.

Sergio

[cirelaw]

Simply Beautiful~ Why were the so heavy?

[rolandtg]

The stock is made of teak or something similar. I have one of these M48's. It's a great shooter.

[danielsand]

Rifle in question was made in "PREDUZECE 44" (written in Cyrilc on this rifle at that time, meaning "enterprise" or factory 44), sometime after after WW2. There were many produced with lettering stamped in Latin also.

"Preduzece 44" was a wartime code for Zastava factory in the city of Kragujevac, in today's Serbia. At the time the rifle was produced, Serbia was one of the states in the country called "Federal People's Republic of Yugoslavia" (Federativna Narodna Republika Jugoslavia). Rifle is also stamped FNRJ (in Cyrilic). Country changed it's name to Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, and the later produced rifles were stamped SFRJ. Some were stamped in Cyrilc, and some in Latin lettering (Yugoslav state of Serbia, and today's Serbia uses Cyrilic alphabet, and other five republics use Latin alphabet). All former Yugoslav republics are independent countries today, to include (from West to East) Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia-Hertzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, and Macedonia. Serbian province of Kosovo declared independence, but is not recognized by UN as of today.

M48 rifle was a standard battle rifle of JNA (Yugoslav People's Army - Jugoslovenska Narodna Armija), that was officially adopted as such in 1948 (superseded by SKS Simonov type made by Zastava with official nomenclature of M59/66 chambered in 7,62X39). Shortly after 1948, the model pictured in the OP was created, and labeled M48A, and the difference was the sheet metal stamped magazine floor plate, front barrel band, and trigger guard (original M48 version had those parts from milled steel).

I own an earlier example (milled M48) in "never issued" condition with three digit serial number, among my collection of Yugoslav small arms from 1943-2000 (the period in which SFRJ existed as a country). Since I've seen these rifles with six digit serial number, mine is really an "early" one! I own one specimen (in MINT condition) of every single infantry weapon from that period made by Zastava, that has a rifled bore (to distinguish from smoothbore mortars, grenade launchers, and flare pistols) .

If you folks are interested, visit Zastava website, and read about the history of the factory from the times of Austro-Hungarian Empire (prior to WW 1), till today. Factory is still producing some fascinating weaponry, and supplying Serbian military at this time, despite being extensively bombed in 1999 by American B1 Stealth Bombers, flying sorties from Ramstein in Germany, and Aviano in Italy. Zastava also produces MANY civilian weapons (hunting rifles and pistols), and is distributed in USA by Mitchell for the last 40+ years.

The rifle in question is the first firearm I ever live fired (at 14 years old), and it was a painful experience. Kicks like a mule, and the steel metal butplate doesn't help. Since I grew up, it didn't hurt any more, and I REALLY enjoy shooting it today on my ranch. Mine is a 2" MOA rifle (at 100 meters) with mint bore, and I use PPU ammo, produced in the 70s. I kept mine in the original condition (iron sights), but MANY of these rifles were used in action during the Balkan wars of the 90s, in Bosnia, Croatia, and Kosovo, equipped with optics.

I can consistently hit a frozen milk jug at 600 meters with mine (open sights). All Zastava arms are built VERY beefy, and made to last MANY generations. None of the weapons made in Yugoslavia at that time have chromed bores, and the Yugo ammo is corrosive. This means immediate cleaning after shooting, and for me that's a non issue, because I was drilled to do this, and I actually enjoy it.

P.S. for Sergio

The rifle you describe as "having K98 parts" is most likely a REAL K98. MANY thousands of these were captured by Yugoslav Partisans in 1945, and many more delivered by Germany as a part of war reparations, to SFRJ in the early 50s. They were scrubbed of Nazi markings, restamped and put in reserve. Many thousands were issued to the units of TO (Teritorijalna Odbrana - Territorial Defense in translation, or basically the equivalent of National Guard in US) as late as 1980s. Some of these (if carefully examined) can still have some tiny Nazi markings missed by the "scrubbers" (scrubbing was done by bored conscripts!), or deemed insignificant by the inspectors. Most had their stocks replaced, but quite a few still have original German laminated stocks.

[Sergio Natali]

Daniel

Yes in fact that rifle was made with parts coming from several German K98K assembled together, and although stamped M48 is closer to a K98K rather to a "genuine" M48.

Chapeau for hitting a bottle at 600 metres, especially with the original metallic sights, mine wasn't that accurate, at the time I used to get better results with a "Persian"



Sergio

[danielsand]

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

Daniel

Yes in fact that rifle was made with parts coming from several German K98K assembled together, and although stamped M48 is closer to a K98K rather to a "genuine" M48.

Chapeau for hitting a bottle at 600 metres, especially with the original metallic sights, mine wasn't that accurate, at the time I used to get better results with a "Persian"



Sergio

Not a "bottle" Sergio. I don't know if you are familiar with one gallon milk (or juice) containers sold in US? I fill them with water, and put them in the freezer. They are FUN to blast from the distance. The size is similar to a human head (or a smaller watermelon). When hit frozen, they simply explode if hit by high powered rifle cartridge, which 7.92X57 certainly is.

[CAP Black]

Heck, they are fun to shoot when not frozen.
Jack

[Sergio Natali]

Originally Posted by danielsand

Not a "bottle" Sergio. I don't know if you are familiar with one gallon milk (or juice) containers sold in US? I fill them with water, and put them in the freezer. They are FUN to blast from the distance. The size is similar to a human head (or a smaller watermelon). When hit frozen, they simply explode if hit by high powered rifle cartridge, which 7.92X57 certainly is.

Daniel

Oh yes, sorry a gallon is a lot bigger that a bottle, still it's a very good hit! Congrats Daniel


Sergio

[danielsand]

http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/imagetext/1853-1914

If interested, one can read about the history of the gun making in Serbia/Yugoslavia here. On the left of the screen you can chose the period, and read the part that interests you, or read it all.

The website is written in English (other languages can be chosen), and few things are omitted, for reasons unknown to me. The factory was known by the name "Crvena Zastava" for the longest time in history of this factory. Yet,.....this name is widely misinterpreted in the west. Most people in the US translate the name as "Red Banner", which IMO is incorrect. As I am fluent in Serbo-Croatian (among other languages), and spent a considerable time of my life living in the former Yugoslavia, I can assure you that Yugoslavs (all of them, to include Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Montenegrin, and Macedonians) DO NOT use the word "Zastava" in the way Americans use the word "Banner". In the US "banner" can be ANY form of advertising banner, written display for all purposes, but as an example, Americans would NEVER refer to "Old Glory" as a "banner".

"Zastava" simply means "The Flag" (as the flag that officially represents one's country, or in this case......The Party)! I'll explain.

Since SFRJ was "one party political system" (ruled by KPJ - Komunisticka Partija Jugoslavije - Communist Party of Yugoslavia) and that party's official flag was a dead copy of the Soviet flag (solid red with gold hammer and sickle in the upper left corner, with words in gold over the top "Proleteri Svih Zermalja Ujedinite Se" (Proletariat of all Countries Unite), the factory was named "Red Flag". The term used widely for the party flag.

In the later years, KPJ changed its name to SKJ (Savez Komunista Jugoslavije - Union of the Communists of Yugoslavia), but the flag remained the same. The party flag was displayed along the official Yugoslavian flag, at all events, government offices, and such, along with the flag of the republic (state) in which the office was residing. In the US, Old Glory (Stars and Stripes) is displayed with the State Flag in the same fashion, but in Yugoslavia there were three flags on display, in courts, government installations, parades, national holidays, etc (National Flag, Red Flag, and the State Flag).

So this IS where "Crvena Zastava" got its name from. And it's not a "banner", but the official party flag.

After the war of the 90s, and disintegration of SFRJ, the word "Crvena" (Red) was omitted, and the factory was simply called "The Flag" (Zastava).

All former republics retained their tricolors as before, except the red star was taken out, replaced by the coat of arms (shield) of each republic (independent country today).

And now I'm done with the rant/history lesson. Like I said in one of my previous posts,......the fact that we are all interested in historical arms, makes me think we all have a certain fondness for the history in general. Yugoslav produced arms are of particular interest to me (as a collector/user), and I think they belong into the "upper tier" of military issued arms, in terms of their quality, serviceability, and longevity. I used them in action, and I use them weekly in recreational shooting today.

[danielsand]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Simply Beautiful~ Why were the so heavy?

And to answer your question Eric..........

I own four rifles in 7.92X57. M48, Spanish La Coruna, Egyptian Hakim, and Yugo M76. I also own "neutered" M53 that is classified by ATF as a "rifle", but it's a semi version of German MG42.

7.92 Mauser caliber is by far my favorite cartridge to shoot, and it has similar ballistics to 30-06. It's a hard hitting round, with substantial recoil. To tame the recoil, one can either increase the weight of the weapon, or tap some gas to work the action (which lowers muzzle velocity naturally). As you probably know,.....Yugo M76, and Egyptian Hakim, are semi-autos. Recoil is negligible, but the weight of the weapon is there nevertheless. Partially due to extra parts needed, and the increased magazine capacity (10 in semis, and 5 in bolt actions). With semis I go through a lot more rounds per session, and I carry more on me when I go out (more weight).

Since I shoot all three regularly, I can tell you that the two semi-autos weigh even more than La Coruna, or M48. I never put any of them on the scale (nor I bothered to research "published" weight), but they sure feel heavier in my hand, and my horse probably notices the difference too (I ride into the mountain on horseback when I go shooting).

And back then when M48 was fielded, men were still men, and didn't need any "plastic guns", computers, and diapers.

[Sergio Natali]

My Yugo M48 was in the cal. 8x57 JS like all the others Mauser K98K

Sergio

P.S.

"And back then when M48 was fielded, men were still men, and didn't need any "plastic guns"..."

I agree except on "plastic guns", since 1992 I think I've owned and used at the range at least a dozen of GLOCKs! :-)

[danielsand]

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

My Yugo M48 was in the cal. 8x57 JS like all the others Mauser K98K

Sergio

P.S.

"And back then when M48 was fielded, men were still men, and didn't need any "plastic guns"..."

I agree except on "plastic guns", since 1992 I think I've owned and used at the range at least a dozen of GLOCKs! :-)

I see the dimensions you posted Sergio, but all information that was available (still is) on K98, M48, and alike, says that 8mm Mauser (as it's called in the US) IS actually 7.92X57 as I was taught in the school in Yugoslavia. No doubt they knew what their bore diameter is? Heck,.....even PPU "sniper" ammo I'm using is headstamped 7.9! (I just looked).

Edited to add: I just looked closely, and you posted the case mouth dimension of the cartridge which is correct (with some tolerances depending on the manufacturer). But the bore itself IS 7.92 (measured from "land to land", NOT groove to groove!). Since the bullet IS 8mm+, smaller bore makes a nice "bite" on the bullet, and gives it the necessary rotation. Guns chambered in this caliber ARE 7.92, and the bullets are a tad bigger. Americans commonly refer to this caliber as "8mm Mauser", but Germans, Yugos, Spaniards, etc call it 7.92. Back in the day in Yugoslavia they called it simply "seven point nine millimeter" not bothering with remaining .02, and they stamped the ammo as such.

As far as "plastic guns", ....that was my feeble attempt at humor, because my favorite pistol IS Glock, and I own G26, and G17 (used to own G24, and G22 also, but didn't care much for .40 cartridge, so I sold them). When in need to take one with me, I take G26 every time, but for serious work I would take G17 (carried it in Bosnia in the 90s). I put about 1000 rounds through these two per year.

IF I could have ANY (imaginary) handgun, I would take Yugo M57 in 7.62X25 with double stacked mag, Glock "safe action", and no levers, safeties, and gadgets. I would also load it with "Hydra Shock" hollow points, or "Black Talons" for some good stopping power. As it is,.....M57 single stack, single action (with round nose FMJs) is great for plinking, but is far behind modern handguns, although an important part of my collection of Yugo weaponry.

[cirelaw]

Is ammo for this rifle available in the states? What is it! Tks

[danielsand]

Did some "digging", and I think I know where the confusion is coming from.

Most European countries in the period (WW2, and in the years after) referred to their calibers by the dimension of the bore, measured from "land to land". I don't know about Italy though.

In Yugoslavia that was certainly the case. They called the Mauser cartridge 7.92X57mm. They also call 7.62X39 (and all others) by the dimension of the bore. All these weapons have slightly bigger bullets (for the reason mentioned in the above post).

Even P08 is stamped at the bottom of the barrel as 8.82 (or 8.83...I've seen both), but we all know that the bullet IS 9mm, right? In Europe 9mm Luger caliber is called "Long Nine" in some countries (including Yugoslavia), and .380 (or German 9mm Kurtz) is called "short nine".

Americans are masters of simplifying everything, and they sell the ammo in question as "8mm Mauser". They call all weapons by the diameter of the bullet, NOT by the size of the bore that shoots it! Throw in SAE measurements, and you have a nice confusion going. As we know, 7.62mm is .30 caliber in the US, 9mm is .380, and so on.

And in conclusion,......ALL Mauser rifles used by Germany were the same caliber as M24, M48, M48A, M53, MG42, MG34, etc. They produced the rifles in other calibers as well (7mm Mauser) for other countries.

[danielsand]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Is ammo for this rifle available in the states? What is it! Tks

Eric,......

8mm Mauser is ABUNDANT in the States. Either as a "military surplus" (cheap), or "commercial ammo" (spendy). All ammo websites have it for sale (AIM for example, but there are tons of others).

I prefer Yugo military surplus, and that's what I shoot. A friend of mine reloads his custom loads, and can shoot "groups" that look like cloverleaf. My military ammo does not shoot groups, but every shot is a "kill".

Commercial ammo is reloadable (Boxer primed) and non corrosive. Military surplus is not reloadable, Berdan primed, and corrosive. Commercial Boxer primed ammo has a much shorter "shelf life" than military Berdan primed ammo, and is much more expensive. If properly stored, Yugo military ammo has a shelf life of 50 years (per JNA manual), at which point it's suggested to rotate the stock. I'll be 60 this year. No need to "rotate" anything!

[Sergio Natali]

"Berdan" ammo is easily available and extremely cheap,actually it makes home reloading absolutely unworthy.

Sergio

[Sergio Natali]

Daniel

Some years ago when I tought I was a K98K collector... I had also a couple of these, and I remember that the scope ZF41 nor ZF42 weren't really nothing spectacular and every time after a few shots of 8x57JS I used to end up with a sore shoulder...

... so I sold it all...

and started to collect Lugers.


Sergio