1912 Erfurt, Unit Marked

Dwight Gruber · 06-18-2003, 02:03 AM

Subject gun is an Erfurt, chamber date 1912. Serial number is 454, which puts it very near the beginning of production that year; estimated 1912 production is 21,000 units (Still, "Imperial Lugers", p.15).

This Luger is unit marked 67.RMG.35. meaning that it served with the 67th Infantry Regiment, Machine-gun company, as weapon #35.

This pistol is a perverse combination of excellence and frustration. It is somewhat better than 85% of its original finish, and 40% straw. All the serial numbers match, including the grips, and all the small parts are inspector stamped, as per regulation--except--yes, you observe correctly, someone put an Artillery barrel on it!, a commercial barrel to boot ("Germany" stamped beneath the sight on the right side, no numbers or proofs) reducing the pistol to marginality as a collector's piece; the sideplate is commercial, as well. Although the trigger number is the wrong size and a very different font, and looks like it has been ground and re-stamped, under magnification faint remnants of the original 54 are visible.

A holdopen has been added. There is one Revision Commission stamp, on the front of the trigger guard.

I am told that the magazine which came with this Luger is an armorer's replacement--it has two inspector's marks, and no serial number. The inspector's mark is just visible on the grip screw in this picture, as well.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 06-18-2003, 10:47 AM

I never met a Luger I didn't like ! Nice Gun Dwight...

Roadkill · 06-18-2003, 10:19 PM

Dwight, gotta be positive. I bet if you can get the rear, middle, and front sights all ligned up at once it would be very accurate but elevation might be difficult. There was an artillery luger for sale a while back with a short barrel hence no rear sight, ya'll need to get together. Here it is:

http://www.gunsandammoauctions.com/a...p?Item=9188306

rk

Dwight Gruber · 06-18-2003, 10:50 PM

RK,

I have enough trouble keeping the front sight aligned with -one- rear!

I hate to break up a gun which is fundamentally this nice. It has been suggested that this Luger is legitimate as a Weimar commercial modification, and this perspective is growing on me--I may just leave well enough alone.

--Dwight

George Anderson · 06-19-2003, 10:25 AM

I had a 16" arty that probably came through Pacific Arms in the '20s. It still had the P08 rear toggle with sight. Alot of what they did (PA) was to solicit customers to send their pistols in for modification. This piece could well be one of those.

Dwight Gruber · 06-19-2003, 10:47 AM

George,

Did the long-barrel have a standard artillery sight, or did it use the gun's own toggle sight? Was it stamped with Pacific Arms anywhere?

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 06-19-2003, 11:30 AM

Here is a picture of it, hope you don't mind George, but I believe you sold this puppy,

Ed

George Anderson · 06-19-2003, 02:10 PM

It had an artillery sight (not fine tuned), the barrel was marked "GERMANY". It was not marked to Pacific Arms but was identical to what was offered in their catalogue. They also offered various barrels as well as a "tune-up service" if you sent your pistol to them.

Pete Ebbink · 06-19-2003, 07:24 PM

Hello George,

I cannot make it quite out on your old long barrel, but it looks like the original rear toggle sight was still there...(?)...

Hello Dwight,

On a fast read of your original post; one could carelessly go away reading too fast and assume the 1912 Erfurts were LP-08's...when they were only P-08's. Erfurt LP-08's did not appear until 1914 and no others from Erfurt (except a controversial 1915 Erfurt LP-08 and a 1917 Erfurt LP-08...).

Just thought we might want to clarify this point...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

06-18-2003, 02:03 AM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,899 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,304 Times in 429 Posts	1912 Erfurt, Unit Marked Subject gun is an Erfurt, chamber date 1912. Serial number is 454, which puts it very near the beginning of production that year; estimated 1912 production is 21,000 units (Still, "Imperial Lugers", p.15). This Luger is unit marked 67.RMG.35. meaning that it served with the 67th Infantry Regiment, Machine-gun company, as weapon #35. This pistol is a perverse combination of excellence and frustration. It is somewhat better than 85% of its original finish, and 40% straw. All the serial numbers match, including the grips, and all the small parts are inspector stamped, as per regulation--except--yes, you observe correctly, someone put an Artillery barrel on it!, a commercial barrel to boot ("Germany" stamped beneath the sight on the right side, no numbers or proofs) reducing the pistol to marginality as a collector's piece; the sideplate is commercial, as well. Although the trigger number is the wrong size and a very different font, and looks like it has been ground and re-stamped, under magnification faint remnants of the original 54 are visible. A holdopen has been added. There is one Revision Commission stamp, on the front of the trigger guard. I am told that the magazine which came with this Luger is an armorer's replacement--it has two inspector's marks, and no serial number. The inspector's mark is just visible on the grip screw in this picture, as well. --Dwight

06-18-2003, 10:47 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I never met a Luger I didn't like ! Nice Gun Dwight... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-19-2003, 11:30 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	Here is a picture of it, hope you don't mind George, but I believe you sold this puppy, Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-18-2003, 10:19 PM	#3
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Dwight, gotta be positive. I bet if you can get the rear, middle, and front sights all ligned up at once it would be very accurate but elevation might be difficult. There was an artillery luger for sale a while back with a short barrel hence no rear sight, ya'll need to get together. Here it is: http://www.gunsandammoauctions.com/a...p?Item=9188306 rk

06-18-2003, 10:50 PM	#4
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,899 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,304 Times in 429 Posts	RK, I have enough trouble keeping the front sight aligned with -one- rear! I hate to break up a gun which is fundamentally this nice. It has been suggested that this Luger is legitimate as a Weimar commercial modification, and this perspective is growing on me--I may just leave well enough alone. --Dwight

06-19-2003, 10:25 AM	#5
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	I had a 16" arty that probably came through Pacific Arms in the '20s. It still had the P08 rear toggle with sight. Alot of what they did (PA) was to solicit customers to send their pistols in for modification. This piece could well be one of those.

06-19-2003, 10:47 AM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,899 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,304 Times in 429 Posts	George, Did the long-barrel have a standard artillery sight, or did it use the gun's own toggle sight? Was it stamped with Pacific Arms anywhere? --Dwight

06-19-2003, 02:10 PM	#8
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	It had an artillery sight (not fine tuned), the barrel was marked "GERMANY". It was not marked to Pacific Arms but was identical to what was offered in their catalogue. They also offered various barrels as well as a "tune-up service" if you sent your pistol to them.

06-19-2003, 07:24 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello George, I cannot make it quite out on your old long barrel, but it looks like the original rear toggle sight was still there...(?)... Hello Dwight, On a fast read of your original post; one could carelessly go away reading too fast and assume the 1912 Erfurts were LP-08's...when they were only P-08's. Erfurt LP-08's did not appear until 1914 and no others from Erfurt (except a controversial 1915 Erfurt LP-08 and a 1917 Erfurt LP-08...). Just thought we might want to clarify this point... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />