rear toggle link broke apart

Artsi · 09-05-2002, 04:36 PM

Been shooting a non-numeric accurate P08 over a year now. (This has no collectible value, so why not let the old pistol live life to the fullest).
Been careful, I handload all ammo myself, keeping charge level where the pistol just functions. This should minimise mechanical stresses to pistol's action.

Despite my efforts, the darn rear toggle link broke apart today. Dang.
Judging by the broken off surface, the break has been developing over time. Maybe someone else during the decades has shot sub machinegun ammo with it, who knows.

My question is: will breaking the replacement link also be inevitable, even with light loads?

A local gunshow is 2 weeks away, I reckon I'll have my shot at finding a replacement part. If that fails, are there aftermarket replacement part outlets in the USA which would be able to sell me a stronger alloy toggle link, rather than opting for one made 60 years ago?
How about that a rear toggle from stainless steel Stoeger P08, that should hold up shooting better I think. (I don't mind two tone appearance). Does anyone know whether they actively sell spareparts for their st.steel American Eagles? (I browsed their website, they don't even have a phonenumber for questions).

Any commentary over this dilemma is most welcome.

-Artsi

Edward Tinker · 09-05-2002, 04:43 PM

Lots of older parts out there. On e-bay there are links, on Sarco, Numrich and Tom Heller, here on the forum, (under Lugerdoc) could probably answer the questions on the newer and old, plus he might have 70's Mauser parts and they'd be essentially NIB (new in box). Should fit fine, but he would know for sure.

I think Steve put a stainless receiver or barrel on a blued gun, and it fit right if I remember, looked "interesting". [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Roadkill · 09-05-2002, 06:10 PM

Here's one on ebay right now.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=1855812146

RK

unspellable · 09-05-2002, 06:35 PM

Don't be afraid of a vintage part. You have unfortunatly experienced a rare fluke. I would not venture any opinion as to the cause without seeing the evidence, but in general the vintage Luger in good condition should take all the in spec ammo you can stuff in it until your kids die of old age. By the time your grandkids have it, the bore will be worn out from too much cleaning.

Possible contributing factors:

1: The link had a flaw in it to start with. Not likely but possible.

2: Weak recoil spring. Fairly likely. I've opened a bunch of Lugers and found everything from A to Z for a recoil spring. Thor says the same. (Hey guys! Maybe this is how we spot the fakes!)

3: Overly hot ammo. I know of no current commercial load hot enough to cause this sort of problem with the standard recoil spring. It would have to be a handload or who knows what. The history of the pistol is an unknown.

As an incidental note, the Luger is designed so that in a properly fitted example, the rear link transmits the back thrust from the knuckle to the receiver ramps. (Not the frame ramps that unlock the toggle linkage.) If the break is to the rear of the receiver ramps it is almost certainly related to the impulse and not the pressure. Pressure alone will rarely break the linkage.

Artsi · 09-05-2002, 07:39 PM

Thank you for your input.

I think I'll pass the Ebay. $78 plus maybe $10 for shipping and about 35% taxes on top of it all, that would amount to $118 US currency. Pretty steep for a mere toggle mechanism. I'll wait that 2 weeks to see local gunshow.

It's common knowledge here (in my country) that toggle will fail on P08 pistols.
Finnish army broke many P08's with submachinegun ammo (even with P08's having reinforced mainspring). My toggle has broken exactly as the hearsay informs.
I fully agree on 'unspellables' view on mechanical impulse rather than ammo pressure related failure.

I have tailored my ammo just beyond the borderline what makes the action tick. Anything short of that powder charge level will lead into various jamming problems. Clear evidence of too weak load is how far the action throws spent cases when fired. Sometimes cases don't even have enough energy to fly above my head - thus attempting to park themselves on top of my head.
Based on these I'm more than confident in claiming that my loads are lightyears away from hot loads.

After some heavy thinking I think I understood given description how rearward shock is lead to rails in frame.
My toggle is broken in such manner as bolt assembly/front toggle link had continued their rearward motion after everything else had stopped.

Coming to think about it, the darn pistol had totally inadequate main spring installed as it came to my posession. It was a shortened bolt rifle firing pin spring. I cannot help thinking the metal fatigue had been started at that time era.

Oh well, whining won't mend it.

I'd like to post a pic of how it's broken if anyone is interested. I have the gear to do it, but don't actually know how to create a homepage and how to publish the pic in the net. Only after then it would be possible to 'link it' to this forum. I'm ready to take pic and email it to somebody if they know how to do the magic.

- Artsi

G.W. Gill · 09-05-2002, 11:40 PM

Hello,

I had one break many years ago (15), and I ordered on from Sarco. Most of their parts for me have worked just fine. I have to admit that I hav'nt been a customer for years. Things change.

If you wan't to be SURE, and don't wan't to mess around with fitting things, be sure to order from a specialty source.

Edward Tinker · 09-06-2002, 01:13 AM

Artsi, there is a how to do it photo on the help and feedback page, try it, e-mail me if you have problems. Once you do it a few times, it is easy, of course you can always just do http://nextone.is.mine.com and it will go to your page, but uploading to the forum is easy once you do it a few times on the left at www.lugerforum.com

Artsi · 09-07-2002, 12:50 PM

Okay, I have news to those who'd be interested in having a look at my broken toggle.

I finally caught the hang of making homepages and how to transfer the lot to web hosting server.
Bad news are that I wasn't satisfied with results when I resized the photos. So I decided to put them up 'as is'. There are 11 pictures. Average size for one pic is about 1,5 Megbytes, so entire page is about 13 Megs. Broadband users may even just about tolerate with this, but cable modem users most likely will find this utterly frustrating. I however did learn how to divide them into their respective sub pages, so no need to open all 13Megs in one go - like in first homepage version. There are 9 pages in all, look for clicking to next page at left bottom corner.

I'll look into resizing them in time, and also start finally learning on making more refined homepage. (This page is made with notepad, so no luxury gadgets on this site).

Happy surfing and have patience.

NOTE - page may be offline from time to time during this weekend while I'm finetuning them. Hickups should last only short time, like 10 minutes or so.

http://personal.inet.fi/viihde/rwd_s...umhomepage.htm

-Artsi

P.S. - Feel free to comment

Artsi · 09-07-2002, 06:49 PM

Here is one vastly cut out (but effectively same size as on my own page) picture of broken toggle.

Artsi · 09-22-2002, 06:00 AM

Hoorray - I found a replacement rear toggle link at our domestic gun show!
I paid $42 for it, and spent another $10 to get a toggle link with a starting hair crack in it.
You may ask whether that was all that clever at all. Anyhow - I shall let a gunsmith friend of mine have a go at repairing it. He'll charge next to nothing for repairing it. Besides - he's got TIG welding equipment. That vastly improves chances of getting it right. Since toggle has developed a crack already - this is a 'win-win' situation.

I would not consider going this extreme unless those darn thingies would not be sooo rare. Almost non-existent.
There were maybe about 150 tables at show. After extensive search I managed to track down three rear toggles being on sale. I got two of them, moments earlier the most in mint condition link was sold to a collector. Bastard.

On a non-related topic, I shall welcome any clever ideas on prank phonecalls. Thank you.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

- Artsi (soon to join P08 shooting community)

09-05-2002, 04:36 PM	#1
Artsi User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	rear toggle link broke apart Been shooting a non-numeric accurate P08 over a year now. (This has no collectible value, so why not let the old pistol live life to the fullest). Been careful, I handload all ammo myself, keeping charge level where the pistol just functions. This should minimise mechanical stresses to pistol's action. Despite my efforts, the darn rear toggle link broke apart today. Dang. Judging by the broken off surface, the break has been developing over time. Maybe someone else during the decades has shot sub machinegun ammo with it, who knows. My question is: will breaking the replacement link also be inevitable, even with light loads? A local gunshow is 2 weeks away, I reckon I'll have my shot at finding a replacement part. If that fails, are there aftermarket replacement part outlets in the USA which would be able to sell me a stronger alloy toggle link, rather than opting for one made 60 years ago? How about that a rear toggle from stainless steel Stoeger P08, that should hold up shooting better I think. (I don't mind two tone appearance). Does anyone know whether they actively sell spareparts for their st.steel American Eagles? (I browsed their website, they don't even have a phonenumber for questions). Any commentary over this dilemma is most welcome. -Artsi __________________ A golf course is a waste of perfectly good rifle range. (- someone in the net-)

09-05-2002, 04:43 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Lots of older parts out there. On e-bay there are links, on Sarco, Numrich and Tom Heller, here on the forum, (under Lugerdoc) could probably answer the questions on the newer and old, plus he might have 70's Mauser parts and they'd be essentially NIB (new in box). Should fit fine, but he would know for sure. I think Steve put a stainless receiver or barrel on a blued gun, and it fit right if I remember, looked "interesting". [img]biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-05-2002, 07:39 PM	#5
Artsi User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you for your input. I think I'll pass the Ebay. $78 plus maybe $10 for shipping and about 35% taxes on top of it all, that would amount to $118 US currency. Pretty steep for a mere toggle mechanism. I'll wait that 2 weeks to see local gunshow. It's common knowledge here (in my country) that toggle will fail on P08 pistols. Finnish army broke many P08's with submachinegun ammo (even with P08's having reinforced mainspring). My toggle has broken exactly as the hearsay informs. I fully agree on 'unspellables' view on mechanical impulse rather than ammo pressure related failure. I have tailored my ammo just beyond the borderline what makes the action tick. Anything short of that powder charge level will lead into various jamming problems. Clear evidence of too weak load is how far the action throws spent cases when fired. Sometimes cases don't even have enough energy to fly above my head - thus attempting to park themselves on top of my head. Based on these I'm more than confident in claiming that my loads are lightyears away from hot loads. After some heavy thinking I think I understood given description how rearward shock is lead to rails in frame. My toggle is broken in such manner as bolt assembly/front toggle link had continued their rearward motion after everything else had stopped. Coming to think about it, the darn pistol had totally inadequate main spring installed as it came to my posession. It was a shortened bolt rifle firing pin spring. I cannot help thinking the metal fatigue had been started at that time era. Oh well, whining won't mend it. I'd like to post a pic of how it's broken if anyone is interested. I have the gear to do it, but don't actually know how to create a homepage and how to publish the pic in the net. Only after then it would be possible to 'link it' to this forum. I'm ready to take pic and email it to somebody if they know how to do the magic. - Artsi __________________ A golf course is a waste of perfectly good rifle range. (- someone in the net-)

09-06-2002, 01:13 AM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Artsi, there is a how to do it photo on the help and feedback page, try it, e-mail me if you have problems. Once you do it a few times, it is easy, of course you can always just do http://nextone.is.mine.com and it will go to your page, but uploading to the forum is easy once you do it a few times on the left at www.lugerforum.com __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-07-2002, 12:50 PM	#8
Artsi User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Okay, I have news to those who'd be interested in having a look at my broken toggle. I finally caught the hang of making homepages and how to transfer the lot to web hosting server. Bad news are that I wasn't satisfied with results when I resized the photos. So I decided to put them up 'as is'. There are 11 pictures. Average size for one pic is about 1,5 Megbytes, so entire page is about 13 Megs. Broadband users may even just about tolerate with this, but cable modem users most likely will find this utterly frustrating. I however did learn how to divide them into their respective sub pages, so no need to open all 13Megs in one go - like in first homepage version. There are 9 pages in all, look for clicking to next page at left bottom corner. I'll look into resizing them in time, and also start finally learning on making more refined homepage. (This page is made with notepad, so no luxury gadgets on this site). Happy surfing and have patience. NOTE - page may be offline from time to time during this weekend while I'm finetuning them. Hickups should last only short time, like 10 minutes or so. http://personal.inet.fi/viihde/rwd_s...umhomepage.htm -Artsi P.S. - Feel free to comment __________________ A golf course is a waste of perfectly good rifle range. (- someone in the net-)

09-05-2002, 06:10 PM	#3
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Here's one on ebay right now. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=1855812146 RK

09-05-2002, 06:35 PM	#4
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Don't be afraid of a vintage part. You have unfortunatly experienced a rare fluke. I would not venture any opinion as to the cause without seeing the evidence, but in general the vintage Luger in good condition should take all the in spec ammo you can stuff in it until your kids die of old age. By the time your grandkids have it, the bore will be worn out from too much cleaning. Possible contributing factors: 1: The link had a flaw in it to start with. Not likely but possible. 2: Weak recoil spring. Fairly likely. I've opened a bunch of Lugers and found everything from A to Z for a recoil spring. Thor says the same. (Hey guys! Maybe this is how we spot the fakes!) 3: Overly hot ammo. I know of no current commercial load hot enough to cause this sort of problem with the standard recoil spring. It would have to be a handload or who knows what. The history of the pistol is an unknown. As an incidental note, the Luger is designed so that in a properly fitted example, the rear link transmits the back thrust from the knuckle to the receiver ramps. (Not the frame ramps that unlock the toggle linkage.) If the break is to the rear of the receiver ramps it is almost certainly related to the impulse and not the pressure. Pressure alone will rarely break the linkage.

09-05-2002, 11:40 PM	#6
G.W. Gill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeastern USA Posts: 369 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello, I had one break many years ago (15), and I ordered on from Sarco. Most of their parts for me have worked just fine. I have to admit that I hav'nt been a customer for years. Things change. If you wan't to be SURE, and don't wan't to mess around with fitting things, be sure to order from a specialty source.

09-07-2002, 06:49 PM	#9
Artsi User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here is one vastly cut out (but effectively same size as on my own page) picture of broken toggle. __________________ A golf course is a waste of perfectly good rifle range. (- someone in the net-)

09-22-2002, 06:00 AM	#10
Artsi User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hoorray - I found a replacement rear toggle link at our domestic gun show! I paid $42 for it, and spent another $10 to get a toggle link with a starting hair crack in it. You may ask whether that was all that clever at all. Anyhow - I shall let a gunsmith friend of mine have a go at repairing it. He'll charge next to nothing for repairing it. Besides - he's got TIG welding equipment. That vastly improves chances of getting it right. Since toggle has developed a crack already - this is a 'win-win' situation. I would not consider going this extreme unless those darn thingies would not be sooo rare. Almost non-existent. There were maybe about 150 tables at show. After extensive search I managed to track down three rear toggles being on sale. I got two of them, moments earlier the most in mint condition link was sold to a collector. Bastard. On a non-related topic, I shall welcome any clever ideas on prank phonecalls. Thank you. [img]smile.gif[/img] - Artsi (soon to join P08 shooting community) __________________ A golf course is a waste of perfectly good rifle range. (- someone in the net-)