How do you rate a gun?

P. Ristan · 05-09-2004, 11:39 AM

Below I have posted pictures of two guns. Both are beeing offered for sale by a large US company now..

The Astra-pistol is described as "Superb 98% condition".

The Colt-revolver is described as "Fine 98% condition".

I'm not sure how you rate guns in the US, but here in Norway none of theese guns would come even close to 98%...

Any comments??

Peter

Navy · 05-09-2004, 11:44 AM

P,.
I couldn't agree more.

Tom A

Frank · 05-09-2004, 12:41 PM

Peter, I don't have a clue who graded these handguns, but they should either turn on some lights or get a new pair of glasses. They aren't even close!!

George Anderson · 05-09-2004, 01:09 PM

Even Ray Charles would call the Colt a dog from across the room.

P. Ristan · 05-09-2004, 01:45 PM

Well..

The man who rated these two guns have a company selling quite a few old weapons in the US as I understand..

I will not say who he is, that would not be fair...
But I think he also post on this forum, so maybe he will take a hint....
Peter

Dwight Gruber · 05-09-2004, 03:16 PM

Pete,

This is a subject in which I find some interest.

Condition grading of guns is not a science, nor perhaps even an art, it comes closer to voodoo or the casting of bones. I tried to start up a discussion a while back on the topic (percent finish topic link), there seems to be little consensus about methodology or result, or perhaps even the usefulness of percentage grading.

But since you have provided some pictures and your own comments, lets pursue them a bit.

It is very difficult to photograph a gun so that the picture accurately portrays the characterisitics of wear and finish which we want to use to grade the gun. Lighting, contrast, and exposure all conspire to make guns look better (usually, in my own photographic experience) or worse (occasionally) than they really are. Thus, assessing condition from a photograph is already a step removed from reality.

A photograph may not show everything necessary to judge the original assessor's conclusion. In fact, the dealer's website for the samples you selected have a second photo, of the opposite side, of both guns. Seeing these pictures would give people additional information to assess the assessment. What neither set of photos shows are other areas which might be revealing for a percentage assessment--for instance, it appears that there may be no wear on the grip straps of the Astra, which would raise an assessment of its finish percentage considerably.

For additional discussion, this is a link to photographs of a 1900 American Eagle purchased recently from this dealer, stated in his brochure as "Fine, 97%".

--Dwight

P. Ristan · 05-09-2004, 03:46 PM

Well...

I don't know how you rate your guns...

But here, that Colt would not be better than 85%...

I will not make an estimate on the Astra, but surely not as high as 98%...

But in the sellers defense; I have bought items from him before, and he sent them to me in Norway, and I was very happy with them....

In my opinion the items I bought was priced right when looking at the condition. But the thing is that the seller described them as better than they were(in my opinion.. Other norwegian collectors have agreed with me on this..), but still sat the price at a reasonable level...

This made me wonder if collectors in the US grade guns diffrently than we do here in Scandinavia... Because the price was not bad at all, just how he graded the items...

Dwight Gruber · 05-09-2004, 05:27 PM

Pete,

Consider also the context. A seller is going to %rate a gun higher than a buyer, or a kibitzer.

I don't think that there is a difference in the way US and Scandinavian collectors %grade guns--the differences are entirely personal, transcending nationality and locale.

--Dwight

Ron Smith · 05-09-2004, 11:09 PM

I would grade the Astra a thin 85%. The Colt would'nt get a 65% in most places. Photos are'nt a good way to grade guns. However if they don't look any better in hand than they do in the photos. I would stand with my estimate.

Ron

bdcesq · 05-23-2004, 05:39 PM

Because of the variations in grading percentages, I kind of like the old NRA method, Good, Very Good, etc.

lugerholsterrepair · 05-23-2004, 07:10 PM

I gotta throw in with Ron here...I mean it's pretty simple. How much of the gun is missing? Mostly we talk about blue when grading but there are many other factors, grip wear, chips, nicks etc. The bore is also to be considered. Boogered up screws and on and on.
The front of "the Blue Book of Gun Values" Has a section that has excellent photo's and explains their take on grading percentages. Pretty interesting reading. The photo's leave nothing to be desired.
In quite a few offerings I come accross on auction sites as well as Sellers sites the photo's are not only poor but do not show many pertinant areas of interest. I don't believe people will sell as well with bad photographs.

Peter says: I will not say who he is, that would not be fair...
But I think he also post on this forum, so maybe he will take a hint....
Peter
I would have no trouble identifying a seller who rates his items in this fashion. Why all the privacy? He must believe it himself or he would not be offering these on the open market.
Jerry Burney

05-09-2004, 11:39 AM	#1
P. Ristan User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	How do you rate a gun? Below I have posted pictures of two guns. Both are beeing offered for sale by a large US company now.. The Astra-pistol is described as "Superb 98% condition". The Colt-revolver is described as "Fine 98% condition". I'm not sure how you rate guns in the US, but here in Norway none of theese guns would come even close to 98%... Any comments?? Peter

05-09-2004, 11:09 PM	#9
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I would grade the Astra a thin 85%. The Colt would'nt get a 65% in most places. Photos are'nt a good way to grade guns. However if they don't look any better in hand than they do in the photos. I would stand with my estimate. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-23-2004, 07:10 PM	#11
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,865 Thanked 3,104 Times in 1,429 Posts	I gotta throw in with Ron here...I mean it's pretty simple. How much of the gun is missing? Mostly we talk about blue when grading but there are many other factors, grip wear, chips, nicks etc. The bore is also to be considered. Boogered up screws and on and on. The front of "the Blue Book of Gun Values" Has a section that has excellent photo's and explains their take on grading percentages. Pretty interesting reading. The photo's leave nothing to be desired. In quite a few offerings I come accross on auction sites as well as Sellers sites the photo's are not only poor but do not show many pertinant areas of interest. I don't believe people will sell as well with bad photographs. Peter says: I will not say who he is, that would not be fair... But I think he also post on this forum, so maybe he will take a hint.... Peter I would have no trouble identifying a seller who rates his items in this fashion. Why all the privacy? He must believe it himself or he would not be offering these on the open market. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-09-2004, 11:44 AM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	P,. I couldn't agree more. Tom A

05-09-2004, 12:41 PM	#3
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Peter, I don't have a clue who graded these handguns, but they should either turn on some lights or get a new pair of glasses. They aren't even close!!

05-09-2004, 01:09 PM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Even Ray Charles would call the Colt a dog from across the room.

05-09-2004, 01:45 PM	#5
P. Ristan User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well.. The man who rated these two guns have a company selling quite a few old weapons in the US as I understand.. I will not say who he is, that would not be fair... But I think he also post on this forum, so maybe he will take a hint.... Peter

05-09-2004, 03:16 PM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Pete, This is a subject in which I find some interest. Condition grading of guns is not a science, nor perhaps even an art, it comes closer to voodoo or the casting of bones. I tried to start up a discussion a while back on the topic (percent finish topic link), there seems to be little consensus about methodology or result, or perhaps even the usefulness of percentage grading. But since you have provided some pictures and your own comments, lets pursue them a bit. It is very difficult to photograph a gun so that the picture accurately portrays the characterisitics of wear and finish which we want to use to grade the gun. Lighting, contrast, and exposure all conspire to make guns look better (usually, in my own photographic experience) or worse (occasionally) than they really are. Thus, assessing condition from a photograph is already a step removed from reality. A photograph may not show everything necessary to judge the original assessor's conclusion. In fact, the dealer's website for the samples you selected have a second photo, of the opposite side, of both guns. Seeing these pictures would give people additional information to assess the assessment. What neither set of photos shows are other areas which might be revealing for a percentage assessment--for instance, it appears that there may be no wear on the grip straps of the Astra, which would raise an assessment of its finish percentage considerably. For additional discussion, this is a link to photographs of a 1900 American Eagle purchased recently from this dealer, stated in his brochure as "Fine, 97%". --Dwight

05-09-2004, 03:46 PM	#7
P. Ristan User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Norway Posts: 50 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well... I don't know how you rate your guns... But here, that Colt would not be better than 85%... I will not make an estimate on the Astra, but surely not as high as 98%... But in the sellers defense; I have bought items from him before, and he sent them to me in Norway, and I was very happy with them.... In my opinion the items I bought was priced right when looking at the condition. But the thing is that the seller described them as better than they were(in my opinion.. Other norwegian collectors have agreed with me on this..), but still sat the price at a reasonable level... This made me wonder if collectors in the US grade guns diffrently than we do here in Scandinavia... Because the price was not bad at all, just how he graded the items...

05-09-2004, 05:27 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Pete, Consider also the context. A seller is going to %rate a gun higher than a buyer, or a kibitzer. I don't think that there is a difference in the way US and Scandinavian collectors %grade guns--the differences are entirely personal, transcending nationality and locale. --Dwight

05-23-2004, 05:39 PM	#10
bdcesq User Join Date: May 2004 Location: La Habra Heights, CA Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Because of the variations in grading percentages, I kind of like the old NRA method, Good, Very Good, etc.