Unmarked bottom 122 magazine

barr44 · 12-14-2011, 05:09 PM

I have an unmarked bottom 122 mag. that is E/37 proofed on the side, but bottom is unmarked except for a symbol that looks like a
'c' with a tale. I have heard that this particular mag. was rare.
If so what is a rare mag. like this worth.
barr

Edward Tinker · 12-14-2011, 06:04 PM

well, it would not have a suffix unless it originally had a serial number.....

alanint · 12-14-2011, 06:22 PM

From the photo it does not look scrubbed, though.

Edward Tinker · 12-14-2011, 06:27 PM

I thought it did not either? Opinion bud?

would one be marked with a suffix?

Ed

barr44 · 12-14-2011, 07:22 PM

The mag doesn't show any signs of having been sanded or buffed down. I was just curious as to what the significance was of an unmarked 122 mag. I'd seen in another thread about there being unmarked 122 mag.s but they were rare. I was wondering why they would have them, for what special purpose.
barr

Edward Tinker · 12-14-2011, 08:08 PM

Barr, the thing is, why would it have a suffix?

barr44 · 12-15-2011, 06:22 PM

Ed,
Your guess would probably better than mine. Perhaps it just slipped thru the cracks, when the guy working on it, screwed up. But again, it does have the E/37s, isn't that an acceptance mark? Would the same individual stamping the E/37 be the same one to put the serial no.?
Maybe the number has been polished off, if so, they did a very expert job, because there is little evidence if any. I've tried looking at it under a magnifier with a bright like, but cannot discern any indication of a stamping.
Does anyone have any ideas as to why they would have a blank bottom on a 122 marked mag.?
Thanks, barr

guns3545 · 12-15-2011, 07:54 PM

Well, let's dissect the magazine and marks.

First, this magazine represented the transition from Mauser manufacture to Haenel manufacture that occurred in 1940 and was shipped with Mauser 1940 code 42 pistols.

A mixture of Mauser folded blue body magazines and Haenel extruded body blued magazines was shipped up to suffix d with the Haenel 122 magazine shipped thereafter until replaced by the type 4, fxo magazines.

The magazine would have received the manufacturer code 122, later replaced by fxo, at the Haenel factory. Equally, the SE37 would have been applied there by the government inspector at Haenel.

As far as I know, the bottoms left Haenel "blank" but I do not totally dismiss the possibility that Haenel could have been contracted to pre-stamp the suffix letter in blocks of 20,000 magazines plus an allowance for rejects and mis-stamps at Mauser. Remember at this time Mauser was producing over 10,000 pistols per month.

At Mauser, the serial number and + sign would have been hand stamped. I am not aware of any automated serialization of magazine technology available to Mauser but stand to be corrected.

Therefore, if indeed, Haenel had NOT been contracted to pre-stamp the suffix on the magazine bottoms, it is altogether possible that Mauser did it to reduce the amount of individual labor to stamp out one set of issued magazines, i.e. one stamped with serial number and suffix plus one with the foregoing plus a + sign. This would represent a better industrial engineering practice than having a worker stamp everything on the bottom individually, keeping in mind that 2 magazines went with every military issue.

Logically then, if they catered for a certain overage, there would be a few magazines prestamped with the suffix that were not used???? Remember, there were no c suffix guns produced in 1941 and 1942 that would have used the Haenel 122 magazine because the code changed to fxo, and magazine bottom changed from center axis aluminum, eventually to plastic bottom over a period of 18 months. The particular magazine type (Type 3) under discussion as used for a relatively short time.

Now, it appears from the photographs that the magazine is unmessed with. A digital micrometer could be used to check the uniformity of diameter of the bottom to be sure. scrubbing takes about 1/32nd of metal away from the diameter and in some cases of deep stamping more. But let's assume at the moment that the magazine is righteous. As gun manufacturers NEVER throw anything away, the magazine was probably shipped as replacements or went into storage to surface at a later day and find its way into the supply chain.

Therefore, the probable answer to to conundrum is that Mauser or Haenel prestamped a series of magazines with the suffix and this magazine represents an overage that was never assigned a serial number.

That's my SWAG for the day. JMVHO as always. If its not righteous, all bets are off.

Sorry for the verbose reply.

John

alanint · 12-15-2011, 08:01 PM

Excellent review. Clearly the letter codes were machine stamped in a series. I have never seen one that was not centered and oriented, unlike the numbers and plus, which show the variations which hand application would entail.

mrerick · 12-15-2011, 08:18 PM

Putting my "manufacturing engineering" hat on...

I think that it would also make sense from a production point of view to pre-stamp the magazine bottom (only) prior to assembly into a magazine tube. It would be a simpler operation, require a very basic fixture, and could even have been automated to some extent. Compression against a solid block of aluminum is also less risky to a small extent.

That way, if you spoiled something, you wouldn't be wasting an entire magazine, or the rework labor...

Marc

SAKIJOE · 12-15-2011, 09:02 PM

HI
I have a luger magazine that has no markings of any kind,
No 122 or FXO markings just blank
About mine??
Regards
Bob

barr44 · 12-17-2011, 11:13 AM

guns3545,

That is a very interesting and informative narrative. I really appreciate your input.
Thanks again,
barr

12-14-2011, 05:09 PM	#1
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 151 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	Unmarked bottom 122 magazine I have an unmarked bottom 122 mag. that is E/37 proofed on the side, but bottom is unmarked except for a symbol that looks like a 'c' with a tale. I have heard that this particular mag. was rare. If so what is a rare mag. like this worth. barr Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

12-14-2011, 07:22 PM	#5
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 151 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	unmarked mag. The mag doesn't show any signs of having been sanded or buffed down. I was just curious as to what the significance was of an unmarked 122 mag. I'd seen in another thread about there being unmarked 122 mag.s but they were rare. I was wondering why they would have them, for what special purpose. barr

12-15-2011, 08:18 PM	#10
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,907 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,108 Times in 1,509 Posts	Putting my "manufacturing engineering" hat on... I think that it would also make sense from a production point of view to pre-stamp the magazine bottom (only) prior to assembly into a magazine tube. It would be a simpler operation, require a very basic fixture, and could even have been automated to some extent. Compression against a solid block of aluminum is also less risky to a small extent. That way, if you spoiled something, you wouldn't be wasting an entire magazine, or the rework labor... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

12-15-2011, 09:02 PM	#11
SAKIJOE User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OHIO Posts: 128 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Fxo type magazine no markings HI I have a luger magazine that has no markings of any kind, No 122 or FXO markings just blank About mine?? Regards Bob Last edited by SAKIJOE; 11-13-2015 at 11:11 AM.

12-17-2011, 11:13 AM	#12
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 151 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	Very interesting information! guns3545, That is a very interesting and informative narrative. I really appreciate your input. Thanks again, barr

12-14-2011, 06:04 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,924 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,518 Times in 2,087 Posts	well, it would not have a suffix unless it originally had a serial number.....

12-14-2011, 06:22 PM	#3
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	From the photo it does not look scrubbed, though.

12-14-2011, 06:27 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,924 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,518 Times in 2,087 Posts	I thought it did not either? Opinion bud? would one be marked with a suffix? Ed

12-14-2011, 08:08 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,924 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,518 Times in 2,087 Posts	Barr, the thing is, why would it have a suffix?

12-15-2011, 06:22 PM	#7
barr44 User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: york co., va Posts: 151 Thanks: 27 Thanked 35 Times in 21 Posts	Ed, Your guess would probably better than mine. Perhaps it just slipped thru the cracks, when the guy working on it, screwed up. But again, it does have the E/37s, isn't that an acceptance mark? Would the same individual stamping the E/37 be the same one to put the serial no.? Maybe the number has been polished off, if so, they did a very expert job, because there is little evidence if any. I've tried looking at it under a magnifier with a bright like, but cannot discern any indication of a stamping. Does anyone have any ideas as to why they would have a blank bottom on a 122 marked mag.? Thanks, barr

12-15-2011, 07:54 PM	#8
guns3545 Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 437 Thanks: 653 Thanked 492 Times in 218 Posts	Well, let's dissect the magazine and marks. First, this magazine represented the transition from Mauser manufacture to Haenel manufacture that occurred in 1940 and was shipped with Mauser 1940 code 42 pistols. A mixture of Mauser folded blue body magazines and Haenel extruded body blued magazines was shipped up to suffix d with the Haenel 122 magazine shipped thereafter until replaced by the type 4, fxo magazines. The magazine would have received the manufacturer code 122, later replaced by fxo, at the Haenel factory. Equally, the SE37 would have been applied there by the government inspector at Haenel. As far as I know, the bottoms left Haenel "blank" but I do not totally dismiss the possibility that Haenel could have been contracted to pre-stamp the suffix letter in blocks of 20,000 magazines plus an allowance for rejects and mis-stamps at Mauser. Remember at this time Mauser was producing over 10,000 pistols per month. At Mauser, the serial number and + sign would have been hand stamped. I am not aware of any automated serialization of magazine technology available to Mauser but stand to be corrected. Therefore, if indeed, Haenel had NOT been contracted to pre-stamp the suffix on the magazine bottoms, it is altogether possible that Mauser did it to reduce the amount of individual labor to stamp out one set of issued magazines, i.e. one stamped with serial number and suffix plus one with the foregoing plus a + sign. This would represent a better industrial engineering practice than having a worker stamp everything on the bottom individually, keeping in mind that 2 magazines went with every military issue. Logically then, if they catered for a certain overage, there would be a few magazines prestamped with the suffix that were not used???? Remember, there were no c suffix guns produced in 1941 and 1942 that would have used the Haenel 122 magazine because the code changed to fxo, and magazine bottom changed from center axis aluminum, eventually to plastic bottom over a period of 18 months. The particular magazine type (Type 3) under discussion as used for a relatively short time. Now, it appears from the photographs that the magazine is unmessed with. A digital micrometer could be used to check the uniformity of diameter of the bottom to be sure. scrubbing takes about 1/32nd of metal away from the diameter and in some cases of deep stamping more. But let's assume at the moment that the magazine is righteous. As gun manufacturers NEVER throw anything away, the magazine was probably shipped as replacements or went into storage to surface at a later day and find its way into the supply chain. Therefore, the probable answer to to conundrum is that Mauser or Haenel prestamped a series of magazines with the suffix and this magazine represents an overage that was never assigned a serial number. That's my SWAG for the day. JMVHO as always. If its not righteous, all bets are off. Sorry for the verbose reply. John

12-15-2011, 08:01 PM	#9
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Excellent review. Clearly the letter codes were machine stamped in a series. I have never seen one that was not centered and oriented, unlike the numbers and plus, which show the variations which hand application would entail.