1908 Luger

[michael2833]

Hello,

I have a 1908 (I think) luger, and would like some info:

The serial number is 2280 (no suffix, and all numbers match), the proof marks (eagle followed by two crowned F's)are on the LEFT side of the receiver. Unit markings are on the grip strap are "144.R.M.G.23". I have one of the original clips with a wood base. The original bluing is approx 95%, the knerling on the gripps is slightly rounded, but otherwise in excellent condition.

I would like to get a ballpark figure for insurance purposes (or sell).

Please email me for hi-resoulution photos.
mailto:michael2833@yahoo.commichael2833@yahoo.com</a>

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[John Sabato]

Michael, Welcome to the Lugerforum.

Please email the photos to Lugerforum@yahoo.com and I will post them for you. OR- If you read the Site Help and Feedback Forum, there is a tutorial at the top on posting photographs written by one of our moderators with graphics and complete instructions... Post some photos and there will be plenty of advice on the value of your pistol...

Is there a date stamped over the chamber?

From your description, without having seen it, it sounds like it could be anywhere from $500 to $1200 worth of Luger... but good photos will tell the story.

[George Anderson]

Michael, I have sent you an email.

[John Sabato]

Michael... an excellent job of posting photographs! I was just about to do it, but when I got to this posting, there were already there? Since there is no explanation shown...Did you get help from one of the moderators, or did you do this yourself after reading about posting photos in the tutorial?

[Ron Wood]

Those are the clearest struck proofs I have ever seen on a 1908 First Issue. Usually they are very lighly struck, particularly the firing proof. Nice gun.

[John Sabato]

Hey Ron, maybe that is because the proof stamps were relatively new in 1910 ?

[RockinWR]

John.
* And I bet the dies were probably real sharp in the first couple of months of 1909 .
* A S/N 2280ns 1908 1st Issue likely was in the first delivery of 3000 scheduled for 3/09.
* Is that a double crown/T acceptance? Normally a first issue has a C/T & a C/Z. Guess it took Inspector "Z" a month or two to qualify and Inspector "T" had to cover both duties.
* Nothing like a new Contract to swell the ranks.
Respectfully,
Bob

[Ron Wood]

As Bob has pointed out, this was one of the early production of the 1908 military, so not only were the dies nice and sharp but the novelty of stamping these critters hour after hour and day after day hadn't worn off yet. I'd guess a bit more care in marking the first pieces was exercised than in the many later pieces to follow.

Good observation on the double T marking Bob. Did you also notice that the second little crown that is found on the C/Z stamp hasn't been applied to either C/T? I guess Inspector "Z" needed additional supervision.

[Ron Wood]

In case it is of some interest, here is a sample of First Issue proofs that shows comparatively how really sharp Michael's Luger markings are, and an example of the C/Z "double crown".

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Ron,

Here is a 1st. Issue that I foolishly let get away earlier this year...still dream about this pistol...



Regards,

Pete.. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[RockinWR]

Ron,
* Once again a masterful job highlighting the crux of this latest discussion with clear digital pics. Thank You!!
* I don't know. Michael's right hand acceptance is a bunch murkier than the left hand one. Think a small crown could be hiding underneath the right hand letter too?
* As to the doublet Crown/Z, I've done a bit of reflection and can confidently speculate:

************WAG ALERT - WAG ALERT**************
(1) I've noted a late 1918 Erfurt (t block) post which likely was in DWM final assembly when WWI ended. It had crowns; but, no Fraktur letter beneath the crowns. Struck me as odd the crowns would be there alone. Translating this to our 1908's, I've wondered if our 1st Issue barrels were originally destined to DWM Commercial production, were awaiting commercial house proofing(c/N), had a crown(only) stamped on the left receiver as an indication these were ready for proof, the Military contact was awarded, the barrels were diverted from stock and allocated to the 1st issues, and received military acceptance inspection and proofing over the lone early crown.

*********************or************************

(2) Walter,TLB, Pgs.32 & 214 explains in detail the Erfurt holdopen retrofit of 1913. We are familiar with the 3 pip crown/P Erfurt applied near the added holdopen. But, the front sight was to be changed at the same time. The DWM crown/Z is a standard 4 pip crown. I wonder if the extra 3 pip crown of this doublet is an Erfurt crown indicating the holdopen, sight, and whatever else was to be retrofitted had been accomplished. Walter indicates the Prussian P.08's received their retrofit by Erfurt in mid 1913.

*********************or************************

(3) Inspector "Z's" Tool & Die maker was farsighted, drank too much Schnapps to compensate, missed the extra crown when reworking an old acceptance stamp for "Z", and was summarily castigated by promotion to making/counting/inspecting roll pins for the entire Ludwig Lowe Organization till he retired with a pewter watch.

*********WAG ALERT - WAG ALERT****************
******CONTROL NOW RETURNED TO REALITY*********

* Anyone have a lead on further information which can shed some light on this doublet Crown/Z??
Respectfully,
Bob

[Dwight Gruber]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by RockinWR:
<strong>************WAG ALERT - WAG ALERT**************
(1) I've noted a late 1918 Erfurt (t block) post which likely was in DWM final assembly when WWI ended. It had crowns; but, no Fraktur letter beneath the crowns. Struck me as odd the crowns would be there alone. Translating this to our 1908's, I've wondered if our 1st Issue barrels were originally destined to DWM Commercial production, were awaiting commercial house proofing(c/N), had a crown(only) stamped on the left receiver as an indication these were ready for proof, the Military contact was awarded, the barrels were diverted from stock and allocated to the 1st issues, and received military acceptance inspection and proofing over the lone early crown.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Bob,

Your 1st issue barrel/receiver reference seems ambiguous to me, are you referring to a crown on a barrel alone, or do you mean a barrel mounted in a receiver with a crown on the left receiver?

If the latter, the only logical concern which occurs to me is that military acceptance marks are vertical, and a crown "leftover" from a partially stamped c/N on an 08 Commercial would be horizontal, "lazy".

And the last time I proposed parts transfer between Erfurt and DWM I was pretty thoroughly scourged.

--Dwight

[RockinWR]

Dwight,
* You know....my scars started to hurt the instant you mentioned that Erfurt and DWM thing. Think I gave about a pint in that thread too!!
* Your keen observation is correct. I meant the barrel and receiver with the crown on the receiver. As you know the commercials around 1908 much better than I (Lazy C/N), I'd be pleased to quietly retract WAG 1 & save a quart.
* Thanks for the correction. Besides, the little doublet crown appears to be overstamped onto the c/Z deflating WAG1 severely.

Michael,
* Have to agree with John on $$'s. Assuming all matching, your 1st Issue looks to be a very nice example based on what can be seen in the pics. The pics' color tones make assessing straw, blue, etc. dicey. Bore, mag., and other factors are not mentioned. So, while NOT to be considered an offer, I suppose $1500 to insure (watch deductibles) and $900-$1.1k at private sale if no surprises IMO.
Respectfully,
Bob

[Ron Wood]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> And the last time I proposed parts transfer between Erfurt and DWM I was pretty thoroughly scourged. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dwight,
I wouldnâ??t take the â??scourgingâ?� by fellow forum members too much to heart. Pet theories are pretty much fair game for sniping, but it isnâ??t meant maliciously. I recall being taken rather vigorously to task for having the audacity to suggest that â??index marksâ?� were precisely that, and that they were used in early Luger production to index the barrel with the receiver when the barrel was installed. (I still believe that to be the case and that the index marks were applied in a different fashion on later production Lugers and eventually eliminated altogether, but that is a can of worms perhaps better left with the lid on ). At any rate, spirited debate is fun if kept objective and friendly.

[Ron Wood]

Bob,
Now that you have taken WAG #1 off the table, let me â??viciously attackâ?� WAG #2! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> As you have noted, the small crown is applied over the Crown/Z inspectorâ??s mark. Also, this small crown is on all of the C/Z marks I have observed, and it occurs in random positions and orientations with respect to the C/Z mark, so it is obviously independently struck. As I recall, some of these C/Z marked First Issues had not been modified, so that would seem to rule out the application of the small crown to indicate the modifications had been completed (perhaps some of the forum members that have unmodified First Issues could corroborate this). Also, why overstrike an inspectorâ??s mark rather than making it a clear and separate stamp?

Your tongue in cheek remark that â??Guess it took Inspector "Z" a month or two to qualify and Inspector "T" had to cover both dutiesâ?� got me thinking and prompted my equally off the cuff remark â??I guess Inspector "Z" needed additional supervisionâ?�. Now that I have thought about it some more, I find the idea that â??Inspector Zâ?� was serving an apprenticeship and the small crown was a senior inspectorâ??s double check very appealing. No way to verify this of course, but it provides grist for the mill. Here is another chance to â??scourgeâ?� me (or at least a whack on the nose with a rolled up newspaper).

WAG #3 is starting to look pretty good too.