Hello John,
Thanks for setting up the "quiz" for us. I am certainly a novice and in no way an HK expert (only having one HK book by R. Gibson and only having held 5 HK pistols in my hands...), but here is my attempt to "pass" the quiz :
1. Side Plate Issue : For a gun numbered # 4685, its side plate should not be serialled with any external numbers. A pistol with # 4685 should follow the "late numbering style" per R. Gibson's book, page 103. The "early numbering style" (for guns up to around serial # 2500 or so), would have the last two digits on the external surface of the side plate and the first two numbers stamped internally, but not this # 4685. Its side plate should only have "85" stamped, internally.
But an exception in Gibson's book on page 163 does show a '36 HK (serial # 4080) with its side plate externally numbered...
2. Rear, Top Of Frame Ears Issue : The front, top of the left "ear" should have the frame ramp dimension its narrowest at this point to be typical HK machining. The frame ramp maintains the same dimensional thickness as the front and back portions of the "ear' were machined. This looks more like a DWM frame. But the "right" thing about the "ear" is how the frame is undercut and radius towards the front of the pistol along its back side as the "ear" meets the lanyard staple...if this frame is truly a DWM, was this metal sanded down to simulate HK characterists ?
But, I think this frame may really be a DWM frame...
3. End of Trigger Issue : This gun looks like its end of the trigger is thin and not as robust as an HK trigger' as shown in R. Gibson's book on page 40. But honestly, I never could clearly tell the difference in what Gibson was trying to show on page 40 with the variuos trigger makers...
4. "881" Number On Barrel Issue : I would have expected to have the "1" show a little horizontal base...as HK "1's" typically do. But then on page 91 of Gibson's book, is shown a very similar "1"...so I do not know...
But the font size of "881" as compared to the smaller font size of "4685" got me thinking. The photos in Gibson's book that show both barrel gauge and full serial number, appear to have both font sizes of the same size.
5. Big Norm's Observation : In high magnification it appears that the LWaA proof may really be missing on the right side frame rail, but it might be there in the holster wear at the front tip of the rail. If not there, the frame may not be HK and again might be DWM (see item # 2, above...).
6. Extractor Fit Issue : I totally agree with John D. I do not think HK would have let this mis-fit out of their factory. See photo enlargements :
7. Rear Sight Radius Cut : Again, I agree with John D. Per Gibosn's book on page 39, the rear toggle link and the rear sight radius cut looks more DWM than HK. HK pattern is a much wider "Japanese fan" shape.
8. HK Logo Issue : Per Gibson's book on page 82-83, this gun appears to have a Die Type C-1 which is consistent with a serial # 4685 gun. Conclusion: The front toggle link is authentically HK.
But the finish of the front toggle link (with its very typical HK polished, blackish finish) does not match the finish of the breechblock or the finish of the rear toggle link. Those two other parts do not look typically KH...See attached photo :
9. Left Frame Machining Marks Issue : I would not expect a 1936 HK to have such severe circular machining marks along the "ear" cut outs. The few HK's I have held and most in the Gibson book in this serial number range have their ear cut-outs very smooth and almost have a bead-blast finish. I think HK used ground-up walnut shells for their polishing/tumbling steps.
But Gibson on page 161 does show a S-code HK (serial # 3950) with very severe circular machining marks...but on the whole, I think an HK of this time frame should be highly polished.
10. Geisichert Issue : Per page 88 in Gibson's books, this pistol should have a Die Tye B; with the "G" partially underneath the safety lever, with the "G" more square-shaped, and with the "G" a bit bigger in size than the other letters. I do not think this frame stamping of Geisichert is HK, but rather DWM...
There are a few cases in Gibson's book on page 153 and 157 where the "T" does run into the indent, but this is not shown often...and since the "G" is equally sized, I would venture a bet the frame is DWM and not HK...
11. One photo on the seller's web site does hint that this frame may be of HK origin.
Where the bottom of the trigger guard transitions and becomes the front grip strap, typical HK has this transition in a very pointed shape. DWM is very half-rounded in shape. See page 32 of Gibson's book. The seller's photo hints at this but cannot be seen with certainty...
This is not to say that one cannot start with a DWM frame and sand/file this trigger guard-to-grip strap transition to end up with the pointed, coned look of an HK...
My Revised Conclusion : I think this luger started out as a DWM frame, had an HK front toggle added, had an original 1936 HK receiver fork, maybe had an HK barrel installed and then had "4685" added later, and had real HK Ritzmann grips installed.
But I would guess the "donor" gun was a DWM Imperial military gun for the frame (# 4685, ns) and then some HK parts were built up (i.e. an HK receiver and an HK front toggle link). Other small parts of this luger might also be true HK parts (not the rear toggle link, not the take down lever, and not the thumb safety lever), but since a close-up, detailed inspection of those parts and their hiddend surfaces would be required to determine this...
Sorry for being so wordy...
p.s.
If I were contemplating a purchase of this gun, I would ask the seller for lots of close-up, high resolution photos (to go along with my points above), I would ask the seller to sign an avidavit attesting to the claim of "all matching and original", insist the seller pays for shipping both ways if gun is not as advertised, and I would ask for a 7-day inspection period, so I could see this gun at home first and also have time to send it to John D. for his assessment... (how's that for major "sucking up", John...?)
Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />