LugerForum Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Borchardt-Luger Controversy

unspellable · 08-01-2002, 09:37 AM

I think slight changes in the spring lever geometry would allow any reasonable grip angle. Here is my take on how we ended up with the angle we have.

The Borchardt cartridges case is more or less straight from head to shoulder and such a cartridge will stack nicely in a vertical magazine, ala Borchardt C93 and Mauser C96.

The 7.65 mm Parabellum cartridge has a tapered case. (For reasons I'll come to later.) Such a cartridge will not stack nicely in a vertical magazine and is normally associated with a "bannana" magazine, obviously not suitable. By making the over all length of the cartridge slightly greater than the length of the magazine it will rest in the magazine nose high with the nose bearing on the front of the magazine instead of the wall of the case on the case below. This also allows a greater overall length in a cartridge that began as a forced shortening of the Borchardt cartridge.

But now we are faced with cartridges that point up instead of at the breech. Solution? Slant the magazine backwards. Hence the grip angle we all know and love.

Why taper the cartridge? Easier extraction. The Borchardt with its rear roller almost pulls the action open while in the Luger a good deal of energy is expended breaking the toggle and there is no force tending to pull the action open, it's all done on momentum. (The recoil spring actually stores only about one third of the kinetic energy of the cannon, the rest is lost to extraction, ejection, breaking the knee, etc.) Hence easier extraction is a benifit. There are references to the Borchardt's action being smoother than the Luger's.

Like the 7.65 mm, the 9 mm has a tapered case. In more modern pistols the tapered case problem is handled by using a double stacker magazine and making the front a bit narrower so the cartridges are toed in and stack horizontally. There are a few single stackers around just to prove you can make anything work. There are even blow back operated pistols chambered for the 9 mm Parabellum just to prove you can make anything work if you go to suffiiently rediculous extremes.

08-01-2002, 09:37 AM	#28
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	I think slight changes in the spring lever geometry would allow any reasonable grip angle. Here is my take on how we ended up with the angle we have. The Borchardt cartridges case is more or less straight from head to shoulder and such a cartridge will stack nicely in a vertical magazine, ala Borchardt C93 and Mauser C96. The 7.65 mm Parabellum cartridge has a tapered case. (For reasons I'll come to later.) Such a cartridge will not stack nicely in a vertical magazine and is normally associated with a "bannana" magazine, obviously not suitable. By making the over all length of the cartridge slightly greater than the length of the magazine it will rest in the magazine nose high with the nose bearing on the front of the magazine instead of the wall of the case on the case below. This also allows a greater overall length in a cartridge that began as a forced shortening of the Borchardt cartridge. But now we are faced with cartridges that point up instead of at the breech. Solution? Slant the magazine backwards. Hence the grip angle we all know and love. Why taper the cartridge? Easier extraction. The Borchardt with its rear roller almost pulls the action open while in the Luger a good deal of energy is expended breaking the toggle and there is no force tending to pull the action open, it's all done on momentum. (The recoil spring actually stores only about one third of the kinetic energy of the cannon, the rest is lost to extraction, ejection, breaking the knee, etc.) Hence easier extraction is a benifit. There are references to the Borchardt's action being smoother than the Luger's. Like the 7.65 mm, the 9 mm has a tapered case. In more modern pistols the tapered case problem is handled by using a double stacker magazine and making the front a bit narrower so the cartridges are toed in and stack horizontally. There are a few single stackers around just to prove you can make anything work. There are even blow back operated pistols chambered for the 9 mm Parabellum just to prove you can make anything work if you go to suffiiently rediculous extremes.