Hello All,
here is the responce I had when I let him know that this may have been faked.(long)
Ps I was nice about tell him
MG
27 September 2005
Greystone1
mgwilling@hotmail.com
SUBJECT: SS Proof Marked Luger Opinion Response
Dear Greystone1:
Thanks for taking the time to forward me your comments concerning the SS acceptance stamped pre WW2 1938 Luger presently being auctioned by our firm on Gunbroker.com
Had I not been a collector of militaria for well over forty (40) years and lived to see so many "the earth is flat" pontifications made by alleged experts proven wrong time and time again, I might give more credence to the comments you referenced in your communication.
EXPERT OPINIONS
Unfortunately, when expert opinions are meant to apply to issues beyond normal events they tend to move into a world of absolutes where statements like "there is no such thing as a proof mark like this", are more often than not actually only predicated on someone's opinion rather than representing any provable facts.
As an aside, if you fairly investigate virtually any reference books now on the market in any field which have resulted in the publication of a second volume, have you ever noticed how many pages in that second edition are required to be devoted to addressing significant errors made by the author in the first edition which they are now forced to retract or correct based on new evidence.
Most often, these errors occur because of two (2) areas of procedural quick sand:
1) The erroneous assumption that a nation like Germany operated in an absolute
environment of bureaucracy from day to day which was divorced from the
application of common sense or expediency in meeting the requirements of
their people, industries or armed forces respectively.
2) That a statement or opinion appearing in a previous work written by another author
must be true if it has not been subsequently corrected in a volume two, and is
therefore repeated by the most recent author as if it were gospel, instead of
that person spending the time to investigate its accuracy.
THE POWER OF BELIEFS
While it is not difficult to change people's ideas, it is always exceeding hard to change people's beliefs once they become generally accepted as being fact, whether actually true or not. As an example of the first concept at work, I have a friend who has written a number of books on the subject of collectible Corvettes. In one of his various works, he noted that the 1959 Corvette had three (3) distinct brake drum configurations.
However, in a conversation with a GM technician who actually worked for the Corvette product manager in 1959, subsequent to the publishing of his book, my friend discovered for the first time that GM had actually produced a small number of vehicles having a fourth brake drum configuration in 1959 which were specially manufactured or a special application that never made it into large scale production.
Several weeks later at a car show, my friend was almost assaulted by a very agitated collector who vehemently argued with him that there were only three (3) brake drum configurations in 1959. Ironically, the agitated collector stated he could prove his point, and did so, by referencing the book he read it in, which turned out to be my friend's book. Similarly, I was the senior product manager at Smith & Wesson in Springfield, Massachusetts from 1979 to 1985. During that time, I participated or initiated a number of marketing and promotional events which, while never making it into the company's public records, occurred nevertheless.
One such occasion was the retirement of the range master for NYPD who had been a long and loyal user of Smith & Wesson products. As such, to honor that individual, we produced a special model 60 Smith & Wesson pistol for presentation to the retiring NYPD Range Master that we had serialized with that persons initials
followed by the number 001.
Some years later, in what became a heated discussion, a devoted Smith & Wesson Collector, without knowing my background, tried to convince me at a gun show I was exhibiting at in no uncertain terms that Smith & Wesson never issued firearms with personalized serial numbers under any circumstance. When asked how he could make such an absolute statement without ever working at Smith & Wesson, he stated that he knew this for a fact because if it had been true it would have been
noted in Roy Jinks book.
Nothing short of a time machine where this person could be taken back and physically shown this practice in action would ever serve to convince this collector that his belief in this instance was wrong.
ABSOLUTE OPINIONS IN GERMAN MILITARIA
I could go on and give you numerous examples in the field of German militaria where time and time again over the years, the so called expert position has eventually been proven wrong based on the personal knowledge and experience of an individual who was actually there, such as myself in the Smith & Wesson example, and is able to articulate this information to others based on certain knowledge of what actually occurred, instead of simply reading and parroting the opinions expressed in someone else's collecting bible.
As practical examples, I cannot tell you how many years it took before absolute opinions like only certain firms could make SS daggers, only high swastika iron crosses are real, there were no RZM approved restrikes of pre RZM era medals and day badges produced in Nazi Germany were eventually proven to be completely wrong.
More succinctly, while many younger novice collectors fall for such nonsense and sell off items identified by an expert as being a repro for next to nothing, thinking them reproductions, the so called experts, once they got their hands on the item(s) in question suddenly change their tune and declare the piece involved to be a rare variation which, now that they are selling it, is suddenly worth a whole lot more than what the novice collector received when he dumped it at a low price thinking it to be a repro.
SS LUGER EXAMPLE
In the specific case of the SS proof marked Luger we are discussing, how many of the alleged experts who pontificated on the originality of this item have ever actually seen, handled or physically inspected one on the market anywhere, where genuine or repro, in order to be able to make an informed comment.
Assuming for a second that you are correct in your assertion that "no such mark ever existed", how would anyone ever be able to make such an absolute statement and prove a negative position unless they first studied all available surviving records and photographs to determine the probability of such an item having actually been made?
In short, one can only logically prove a negative by first performing a complete study of all possible eventualities and then ruling out those probabilities that could not possibly happen. As we both know that level of research could not have been applied in this matter, isn't it more accurate to state that my item is not real because the expert(s) you rely on have never seen one before and, consequently, feel more comfortable taking a negative adversarial position than a supporting one which might cost them credibility with their loyal followers, followed by lost sales revenues.
More candidly, how many of the experts you quoted me in this instance would sell this unique firearm for the $500 sum you mentioned should they eventually become the one who owns it?
COMMON SENSE RULES THE DAY
In the end, the Germans of 1938 were a practical people with common sense who were no different than we are in trying to accomplish an assigned or necessary task, particularly in times of unrest, by employing whatever resources are available to do the job.
Exploring that historical context for a moment, in 1938 the SS-VT was an extremely small organization, fighting for resources and credibility in a political battle with the Army and other armed services for the allocation of whatever scarce resources it could claim for itself.
More specifically, General Paul Hauser, the SS-VT Commander had given a priority to developing the morale of the three SS-VT formations under his command by instilling a sense of uniqueness that would give his troops an identify that was their own and would separate them from any other German Armed Forces organization.
To best accomplish this on a very modest fiscal budget, one of his pet procedures was to insure that all unit materials were properly marked so as to avoid them somehow showing up in the hands of the Allegemeine SS, the Army, Luftwaffe or any of the other entities with whom he was now competing for resources.
In the environment created by a serious political and financial competition for resources and manpower, which the SS-VT found itself in the pre war period, do you realistically believe, simply because some alleged expert said so, that armorers for the SS-VT would not place unique acceptance stamps on firearms issued to it?
Incidentally, during my time as an officer in the 5th Special Forces at Fort Bragg during the Vietnam War we did the exact same thing to mark our serialized equipment, to include M-16s and other weapons simply because they were in short supply and we wanted to insure they did not accidentally end up down the street with the 82nd Airborne by accident or theft. If we were practical enough to do this, why wouldn't you think that the SS-VT might not also come to the same conclusion as well?
PERSONAL BACKGROUND
By the way, the Luger in question was originally purchased by me more than twenty five (25) years ago, together with a variety of original SS insignia and other German WWII artifacts, from the son of a deceased WWII veteran. And while it is always possible that the deceased veteran, or his son, somehow arranged to produced this firearm, would it make sense for them to then sell it to me for the small amount of money that I actually ended up paying for the entire lot of items I purchased?
In summary, I know this firearm to be real for that reason alone. When that personal certainty is supported by a variety of other common sense points, such as, have you ever seen another one?, the issue of someone else's negative opinion(s) no longer
holds the weight it might have otherwise held if it had been related to completely uninformed collectors who simply did not have the experience to know that they are just as smart in practical terms than the expert(s) in whom they erroneously place absolute trust.
Having said that, I assure you that some years from now, despite the opinion expressed in your communication, this luger will be in an appropriate museum somewhere where it belongs. Of course, this unfortunately cannot probably happen until one of the experts in question finally own it and suddenly realizes that it is a rare and valuable variation.
SUMMARY
In closing, I would like to take this opportunity once again to thank you for the kindness and professional courtesy you extended to me in taking the time to write and share your information with me in this matter. I wish you the best of success in all of your future collecting efforts.
Best Regards,
Ken Grosick
kedico@gte.net