[Kyrie]

Hi Johnny,


My thoughts and comments, â??between the linesâ?....


>I certainly won't go so far as to say you are mistaken, but there is absolutely

> no way that Aaron's pistol can be mistaken for a 1920 Commercial.


While it is always hazardous to try and read minds, I think what you mean is there is no way Aaronâ??s Luger could be mistaken for (in Jan Stillâ??s nomenclature) an Alphabet DWM. If that is your intent I quite agree


>First it was not numbered into the 1920 Commercial serial number range.


Respectfully, there is no â??1920 Commercial serial number range.â? See Kenyon et. al. if you have any doubts in this regard. I wonâ??t suggest Jan Stillâ??s works, because for Mr. Still there are no 1920 Commercials.


>The pistol is still in the original rust blue,


Aaron tells us it is rust blued and I have no reason to doubt his observation. As to whether the blue is â??originalâ?, that is a matter of speculation. I doubt it is the rust blue applied in 1914 as it is shows none of the (at least!) holster wear one would expect of a 1914 dated Luger. Iâ??d speculate the blue is â??originalâ? to the post-war refurbishment that also likely saw the replacement of the side plate with a new side plate, which was incorrectly numbered.


>with the "halos" around the serial numbers that only develop over time in rust blue.


No offense intended, but â??halosâ? like this are not dependent on type of blue or upon age. They are the result of the stresses in the steel adjacent to a marking that is struck too hard. This kind of thing is even occasionally encountered in current production firearms.


>The pistol is still carrying it's original military serial numbers, proofs, and

> acceptance marks.


Yes sir, I noticed that


Thatâ??s not unusual on 1920 Commercials. Itâ??s a bit unusual that the markings (and in particular the chamber date) show no signs that any attempt was made to remove them, but thatâ??s not unheard of in a 1920 Commercial.


>In addition to that, it still has the pitting that no attempt was made to remove.


Respectfully, you are assuming the pitting was present when it was blued. There is no evidence this is so, and the pitting may be of relatively recent origin.


> It is plain and simple a used military pistol sold in the United States by one

>of the firms importing the pistols for sale "as is" or converting them into

>virtually custom Lugers.


Not hardly


The pistolâ??s finish and replacement side plate are clear indicators of a refurbishment. That it is also marked â??Germanyâ? just as clearly indicates it was sold commercially. A 1920 Commercial is a post-war pistol either made from a Great War military Luger with parts replaced as needed, or made up from Great War part parts, and then refinished and marked for commercial sale. The vast majority of 1920 Commercials were completely scrubbed of military markings and reproofed commercially. A significant number of these pistols will show the incompletely removed markings. Some will retain their full military markings and proofs, and will not have commercial proof.


>The pistols converted into custom order pistols, as in the case of Pacific Arms

> and others, had all remnants of the original markings removed and were fitted

> with custom length barrels and sold as new pistols.


Please forgive me for saying so, but this is almost entirely mistaken.


While dealers in Lugers did do special order Lugers, not all unusual Lugers were special order. Pacific Arms in particular is thought to have added barrels in various lengths simply to improve sales in a market flooded with Lugers.


Regarding the complete removal of markings, while this was attempted it was sometimes unsuccessful. I respectfully direct your attention to the Ownerâ??s Corner, where you will find a 1920 Commercial Artillery with an incompletely removed â??1917â? chamber date. If that is insufficient to persuade you that the removal of markings was not always complete, I then respectfully direct your attention Jan Stillâ??s â??Weimar and Early Nazi Lugersâ?, page 262. There you will find a Luger described by Mr. Still, thusly:


â??During the 1920â??s this Imperial military Luger had its date and proofs removed from its receiver and the DWM removed from the middle toggle (SOME REMNANTS REMAIN [emphasis added - Kyrie]). A new 7.65 mm caliber 6 inch barrel was added. â??GERMENYâ? was engraved into the left frame and this Luger was refinished. This Luger retains its original Imperial serial numbers...â?


>It would have been hard for anyone to have sold Aaron's pistol as a new pistol,

>and it appears very apparent that nothing was done to it to try to upgrade it to

>anything.


Iâ??m afraid you are proceeding from a set of mistaken assumptions - that the pistol would have been represented as new or that a buyer would have been aware it was refurbished. Please remember that we are talking about the 1920â??s. A short while ago I wrote a little piece about how vastly our knowledge of the Luger has increased since the 1950â??s and bemoaning how little we knew in the 1950â??s. No matter how little we knew in the 1950â??s, it was still vastly more than was known in the 1920â??s. Military markings - removed, partially removed, or left intact would have meant nothing to prospective buyers.


>It is still a 1914 dated P08 with an export mark on it.


We agree on at least this much


>The interesting part is the pin in the top of the sideplate. This pin is directly

> over the trigger lever, and could have been an attempt by some previous

> owner to modify the trigger in some way. Could you add a picture of the

> backside of the sideplate?


Yes sir, the photo fooled me too that there was more to the side plate than was really the case


Regards,


Kyrie