LugerForum Discussion Forums - View Single Post

Dwight Gruber · 06-08-2005, 07:15 PM

Part 6

H.P. Comparisons

The most perplexing characteristic of these Lugers continues to be the ground-away stock lug. Early on in my consideration of this topic I wondered if all the H.P. stock lugs were ground the same way. If they were, it would be an indication that they were all done near the same time, or by the same technician, or both. This would be an indicator that the ground stock lug was truly characteristic of the variation, rather than random, coincidental U.S. postwar modification.

Pictured below are, from left to right, the rear grip straps of H.P.54., H.P.495., and H.P.213., also a converted Alphabet Commercial with a u suffix. The two u suffix Commercials are modified so similarly as to be done by the same hand or held to the same specification.

The Prussian Instructions for the unit marking of Police weapons are so precise that they specify the sizes of the letters to be stamped on the grip strap. Don Maus, in his H.P. research, noticed that the grip strap marks on the Lugers he observed seemed to be larger and differently proportioned than regular Police grip strap marks. He performed measurements based on the mathematical scaling and measurement of photos of H.P. grip strap marks avaialable to him, and discovered that, indeed, they are different sizes from the Prussian instructions. See Don's report, linked upscreen, for the measurement details.

This difference would seem to reinforce the opinions of those who assert that these are not Prussian Police Lugers. H.P.54. requires a reexamination of this idea.

The photo below shows the front grip strap markings of H.P.54., H.P.495., H.P.213., and L.M.184. (Landespolezei MÃ?Â¼nster) for comparison. They are all presented at the same scale, measured by grip strap width; slight differences in appearance are due to perspective changes resulting from photographing non-flat surfaces.

It is easy to see that the two u suffix guns are stamped with same-size dies, and that both the letters and the numbers are larger than the the L.M. example. It is also easy to see that H.P.54 differs from the other two guns. I performed some overlay comparisons with these images, with the result that: the letters and numbers of the two u suffix guns are the same size; the letters of H.P.54. are the same size as those of the L.M. comparison gun; the numbers of H.P.54. are the same size as the numbers on H.P.495. (and larger than the L.M. example), and were likely made with the same dies.

Conclusions and Questions

I obtained H.P.54. in the hopes that it would help provide greater understanding of the H.P. Police Lugers. It is ironic that it does so by prompting more questions than answers; at least it expands the topic. The recent appearance of H.P.88. [ http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic...04&whichpage=1 ] and more detailed information about H.P.109. actually throw the whole topic into a state of statistical confusion.

After trying to draft this section four times now, I conclude that I have no conclusion regarding these guns.The evidence in steel is too contradictory, and documentation is not forthcoming to support even the wildest of WAG speculation. I will go so far as to say that I suspect that the more fruitful course of inquiry lies along the line of H.P. being something other than a Prussian Police unit mark.

I am by no means giving up on this topic. I invite anyone with any H.P. marked Luger or accessories to submit detailed descriptions of them, preferably with detailed photographs, to help make up a comprehensive catalog of this variation. Post them on the the Forum, or send them to me dwightg@pacifier.com . I don't mean to duplicate Don Maus's work, but rather to augment it. Reports of an HP. marked Luger--note the single period--would be fundamental to the understanding of this mark.

Before leaving this post I must express my appreciation to several individuals. To Don Maus, for taking the bit and doing serious research on this topic, without which this would just be pictures and descriptions of some guns. To Ron Smith and Bill Munis, for allowing me to use pictures of their Lugers in the comparison photographs. And a special thanks to Bill Munis, whose comments on the Luger Forum regarding the H.P. variation sparked the interest which has resulted in what you just read.

--Dwight

06-08-2005, 07:15 PM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Part 6 H.P. Comparisons The most perplexing characteristic of these Lugers continues to be the ground-away stock lug. Early on in my consideration of this topic I wondered if all the H.P. stock lugs were ground the same way. If they were, it would be an indication that they were all done near the same time, or by the same technician, or both. This would be an indicator that the ground stock lug was truly characteristic of the variation, rather than random, coincidental U.S. postwar modification. Pictured below are, from left to right, the rear grip straps of H.P.54., H.P.495., and H.P.213., also a converted Alphabet Commercial with a u suffix. The two u suffix Commercials are modified so similarly as to be done by the same hand or held to the same specification. The Prussian Instructions for the unit marking of Police weapons are so precise that they specify the sizes of the letters to be stamped on the grip strap. Don Maus, in his H.P. research, noticed that the grip strap marks on the Lugers he observed seemed to be larger and differently proportioned than regular Police grip strap marks. He performed measurements based on the mathematical scaling and measurement of photos of H.P. grip strap marks avaialable to him, and discovered that, indeed, they are different sizes from the Prussian instructions. See Don's report, linked upscreen, for the measurement details. This difference would seem to reinforce the opinions of those who assert that these are not Prussian Police Lugers. H.P.54. requires a reexamination of this idea. The photo below shows the front grip strap markings of H.P.54., H.P.495., H.P.213., and L.M.184. (Landespolezei MÃ?Â¼nster) for comparison. They are all presented at the same scale, measured by grip strap width; slight differences in appearance are due to perspective changes resulting from photographing non-flat surfaces. It is easy to see that the two u suffix guns are stamped with same-size dies, and that both the letters and the numbers are larger than the the L.M. example. It is also easy to see that H.P.54 differs from the other two guns. I performed some overlay comparisons with these images, with the result that: the letters and numbers of the two u suffix guns are the same size; the letters of H.P.54. are the same size as those of the L.M. comparison gun; the numbers of H.P.54. are the same size as the numbers on H.P.495. (and larger than the L.M. example), and were likely made with the same dies. Conclusions and Questions I obtained H.P.54. in the hopes that it would help provide greater understanding of the H.P. Police Lugers. It is ironic that it does so by prompting more questions than answers; at least it expands the topic. The recent appearance of H.P.88. [ http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic...04&whichpage=1 ] and more detailed information about H.P.109. actually throw the whole topic into a state of statistical confusion. After trying to draft this section four times now, I conclude that I have no conclusion regarding these guns.The evidence in steel is too contradictory, and documentation is not forthcoming to support even the wildest of WAG speculation. I will go so far as to say that I suspect that the more fruitful course of inquiry lies along the line of H.P. being something other than a Prussian Police unit mark. I am by no means giving up on this topic. I invite anyone with any H.P. marked Luger or accessories to submit detailed descriptions of them, preferably with detailed photographs, to help make up a comprehensive catalog of this variation. Post them on the the Forum, or send them to me dwightg@pacifier.com . I don't mean to duplicate Don Maus's work, but rather to augment it. Reports of an HP. marked Luger--note the single period--would be fundamental to the understanding of this mark. Before leaving this post I must express my appreciation to several individuals. To Don Maus, for taking the bit and doing serious research on this topic, without which this would just be pictures and descriptions of some guns. To Ron Smith and Bill Munis, for allowing me to use pictures of their Lugers in the comparison photographs. And a special thanks to Bill Munis, whose comments on the Luger Forum regarding the H.P. variation sparked the interest which has resulted in what you just read. --Dwight