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Dwight Gruber · 02-14-2005, 11:29 PM

Costanzo, ever ambiguous, lists two eagle/SU4 figures. To be precise, on page 104, a slightly up-curved eagle with down-pointing feathers over Su4, "1933 Simson rework of a defective part. U represents Ulbricht rework, repair, and reissue. Passed by Inspector #4. Locations noted: right receiver."

On page 129, he shows a stick-style eagle, much closer to the one on this Luger, over SU4: "1940 Simson/Ulbricht proof. Noted on aluminum magazine bottoms. SU-4 denotes Simson/Ulbricht. The number 4 is a contract number."

Note the case of the U, the "1933" mark is Su4; the "1940" mark is SU4.

The right-hand Eagle looks to me more like the Mauser 1936-39 proof Eagle.

The question arises in the context of this gun, what exactly is Simson/Ulbricht? Costanzo shows some (curved) eagle/SU40 marks, and attributes some of them to parts contracts Mauser let with Simson in 1940(!!!).

Walter (The Luger Book) asserts that there is no satisfactory explanation of who or what "Ulbricht"was. He notes that Su ofter appears on tools, sometimes in the form of WwSu. Quoting from p. 251: "This may indicate Wehrmachtswaffenamt (Ww) and perhaps 'Submissionsamt': a gun-accepting office responsible for considering old or rejected guns in the same way that the Revisions-Commission had operated."

There are SU stamps with several different numbers; Walter would have us understand that it is the Su which has the consistent meaning, regardless of the associated number. Is this another example of Costanzo over-documenting the markings, ascribing substantive meanings to variations of the same mark?

Still illustrates both versions of e/Su4 marks in Weimar Lugers (p.2) along with other eagle and number variations on the Su theme. He calls them Ordnance Repair stamps, but the rest of the volume is mute in their regard.

We desperately need to see all the markings on this pistol, particularly any marks on the barrel (or the lack of them) and on the frame. It would be good to know if there is a witness mark on the bottom of the barrel, and also if there is a witness mark which crosses the front sight and the right-side top of the sight base.

What we've seen of this Luger so far is that it is refinished, the upper is a 1918 Erfurt (complete with proper LP-08 sight notch) and that Simson may have had a hand in its (pre-refinish) rework. The RC mark over the hardness inspection, and the absence of the rest of the Imperial proof complement, lends credence to the defective-part interpretation. If the Submissionsamt interpretation is the proper one, other markings may tell who completed or reworked this pistol.

--Dwight

02-14-2005, 11:29 PM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,908 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,330 Times in 435 Posts	Costanzo, ever ambiguous, lists two eagle/SU4 figures. To be precise, on page 104, a slightly up-curved eagle with down-pointing feathers over Su4, "1933 Simson rework of a defective part. U represents Ulbricht rework, repair, and reissue. Passed by Inspector #4. Locations noted: right receiver." On page 129, he shows a stick-style eagle, much closer to the one on this Luger, over SU4: "1940 Simson/Ulbricht proof. Noted on aluminum magazine bottoms. SU-4 denotes Simson/Ulbricht. The number 4 is a contract number." Note the case of the U, the "1933" mark is Su4; the "1940" mark is SU4. The right-hand Eagle looks to me more like the Mauser 1936-39 proof Eagle. The question arises in the context of this gun, what exactly is Simson/Ulbricht? Costanzo shows some (curved) eagle/SU40 marks, and attributes some of them to parts contracts Mauser let with Simson in 1940(!!!). Walter (The Luger Book) asserts that there is no satisfactory explanation of who or what "Ulbricht"was. He notes that Su ofter appears on tools, sometimes in the form of WwSu. Quoting from p. 251: "This may indicate Wehrmachtswaffenamt (Ww) and perhaps 'Submissionsamt': a gun-accepting office responsible for considering old or rejected guns in the same way that the Revisions-Commission had operated." There are SU stamps with several different numbers; Walter would have us understand that it is the Su which has the consistent meaning, regardless of the associated number. Is this another example of Costanzo over-documenting the markings, ascribing substantive meanings to variations of the same mark? Still illustrates both versions of e/Su4 marks in Weimar Lugers (p.2) along with other eagle and number variations on the Su theme. He calls them Ordnance Repair stamps, but the rest of the volume is mute in their regard. We desperately need to see all the markings on this pistol, particularly any marks on the barrel (or the lack of them) and on the frame. It would be good to know if there is a witness mark on the bottom of the barrel, and also if there is a witness mark which crosses the front sight and the right-side top of the sight base. What we've seen of this Luger so far is that it is refinished, the upper is a 1918 Erfurt (complete with proper LP-08 sight notch) and that Simson may have had a hand in its (pre-refinish) rework. The RC mark over the hardness inspection, and the absence of the rest of the Imperial proof complement, lends credence to the defective-part interpretation. If the Submissionsamt interpretation is the proper one, other markings may tell who completed or reworked this pistol. --Dwight Last edited by Dwight Gruber; 02-15-2005 at 03:10 AM.