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RockinWR · 01-02-2003, 04:10 PM

Hugh
Accurately & well stated - given the variables/unknowns.

John G.
- Thanks for the good pictures above which now begin to unlock the provenience of this example. Please understand all "on track" data provided so far has been pertinent. Hugh has arranged this data chronologically where it makes more evolutionary sense. To peel this onion a bit further, I've done some reading and can offer:
- Hugh's use of "SE" is Collector's shorthand for the "Stick Wing/Eagle" appearing over the "GW3" receiver marking. Unlike the original Imperial period (1914) acceptance markings of Crown/E(C/E),C/E,C/X and DWM test proof (Beschussadler) Eagle mark to the right, this SE GW3 was used in the early Nazi (1933-1937) time period.
- John Walter, in his Luger book on Pgs. 133 & 135, states the "GW3" mark appears on Mauser P.08: possibly a pattern gun retained by 'Gewehrsall Nr.3' (third gun assembly shop) of the Oberndorf factory.
- Jan Still, on Pg.203 of his Weimar & Early Nazi Lugers book, advances Starting in late 1934 and continuing until 1942 the German Army received new manufactured Mauser military code Lugers,(S/42,42,byf code). In spite of this inflow of new Lugers, a variety of Weimar or Imperial era Lugers from storage remained in service or were recalled to Army service during the Nazi era. The most common indication of Nazi use is a replacement barrel or matched magazine with Nazi parts or acceptance markings....... An estimated additional 5000 Lugers were recalled to service from storage. Parenthetically, the 1934 holster lends superficial evidence to this rework likely occurring in 1934-1935. If a "GW3" acceptance mark appears on the barrel, this would lend further credence to the statements above. If present, this Inspector's mark would appear on the top left of the barrel (about 10-11 o'clock) at the rear where the barrel screws into the receiver.
- The "K" you mention underneath the removable side plate could indicate the year 1934 or, more likely, was a sub-assembly worker's stamp indicating his work had been performed.
- John, if any other markings are found on the mag's, it would also help establish additional clues for this piece. For instance, the wood bottom mag is likely the original, Imperial era, matching magazine to this example. The presence or absence of inspector's marks, "b" suffix letter, numerals, size/style of the "619", etc, can all add/subtract to this conclusion. What do you find? One matching mag adds value to this example. This is the "good" news.
- Troublesome, with this example, are at least two anomolies as mentioned:

The barrel proof mark you report, "like those of 49-51 without the letter", indicates a SE/swastika test proof which was not used until after 1939. Either you have a late Nazi rework or the barrel may be a third (or subsequent) barrel added to this example at some later time not contemporary to the "GW3" rework. Again the barrel's acceptance mark would provide some indication.
The sear bar's numeric '97' does not match the serial number of the pistol. IMO, it is unlikely GW3 would have replaced the sear bar without removing a non-matching S/N remnant from a replacement sear. Again IMO, the reworked/replaced sear would have been re-matched numbered or at least marked with the GW3 acceptance. Impetus to replace most sears have to do with making functional/improving the trigger pull. When this occurred is unknown; but, negates this example's originality even as a legitimate 3rd Reich rework.

- Less troublesome is the addition of an unmatched Aluminum bottom mag. It is unclear whether this is a bright, tin colored tube or a blued tube mag. and what acceptance marks/suffix accompany the numeric 6050 on the base(droop E/63, dE154, SE63, etc.). A mismatched mag is all too common in the rigs known today; but, it retains its intrinsic value as a (presumed) WW2 mag. and enhances the completeness of the "rig". Also, if a "takedown", skatekey like, tool accompanies this rig, it would add to the rigs value. The key is normally found in the pouch inside the holster's bucket top. Your 1934 holster probably also provides an extra flap for a pin punch and extra patches to be carried.
- Without hard documentation, the story becomes only an "educated" guess. As to this Rig's value for Insurance purposes, any evaluation from pictures (without seeing the firearm/holster) and true overall condition of the example is frought with hazards....not the least of which is a universe of dissenting opinions. However, IMHO $1500 comes to mind. This is not what it could be sold for (maybe $900 +/- $200) nor what it is worth nor is this to be considered an offer; but, should adequately cover an equivalent replacement's cost at some time in the future. As you have expressed, the sentimental value has already outweighed any nominal amount.
- Trust this illuminates some provenience of this example.
Respectfully,
Bob

01-02-2003, 04:10 PM	#3
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 279 Thanks: 109 Thanked 31 Times in 16 Posts	Hugh Accurately & well stated - given the variables/unknowns. John G. - Thanks for the good pictures above which now begin to unlock the provenience of this example. Please understand all "on track" data provided so far has been pertinent. Hugh has arranged this data chronologically where it makes more evolutionary sense. To peel this onion a bit further, I've done some reading and can offer: - Hugh's use of "SE" is Collector's shorthand for the "Stick Wing/Eagle" appearing over the "GW3" receiver marking. Unlike the original Imperial period (1914) acceptance markings of Crown/E(C/E),C/E,C/X and DWM test proof (Beschussadler) Eagle mark to the right, this SE GW3 was used in the early Nazi (1933-1937) time period. - John Walter, in his Luger book on Pgs. 133 & 135, states the "GW3" mark appears on Mauser P.08: possibly a pattern gun retained by 'Gewehrsall Nr.3' (third gun assembly shop) of the Oberndorf factory. - Jan Still, on Pg.203 of his Weimar & Early Nazi Lugers book, advances Starting in late 1934 and continuing until 1942 the German Army received new manufactured Mauser military code Lugers,(S/42,42,byf code). In spite of this inflow of new Lugers, a variety of Weimar or Imperial era Lugers from storage remained in service or were recalled to Army service during the Nazi era. The most common indication of Nazi use is a replacement barrel or matched magazine with Nazi parts or acceptance markings....... An estimated additional 5000 Lugers were recalled to service from storage. Parenthetically, the 1934 holster lends superficial evidence to this rework likely occurring in 1934-1935. If a "GW3" acceptance mark appears on the barrel, this would lend further credence to the statements above. If present, this Inspector's mark would appear on the top left of the barrel (about 10-11 o'clock) at the rear where the barrel screws into the receiver. - The "K" you mention underneath the removable side plate could indicate the year 1934 or, more likely, was a sub-assembly worker's stamp indicating his work had been performed. - John, if any other markings are found on the mag's, it would also help establish additional clues for this piece. For instance, the wood bottom mag is likely the original, Imperial era, matching magazine to this example. The presence or absence of inspector's marks, "b" suffix letter, numerals, size/style of the "619", etc, can all add/subtract to this conclusion. What do you find? One matching mag adds value to this example. This is the "good" news. - Troublesome, with this example, are at least two anomolies as mentioned: The barrel proof mark you report, "like those of 49-51 without the letter", indicates a SE/swastika test proof which was not used until after 1939. Either you have a late Nazi rework or the barrel may be a third (or subsequent) barrel added to this example at some later time not contemporary to the "GW3" rework. Again the barrel's acceptance mark would provide some indication. The sear bar's numeric '97' does not match the serial number of the pistol. IMO, it is unlikely GW3 would have replaced the sear bar without removing a non-matching S/N remnant from a replacement sear. Again IMO, the reworked/replaced sear would have been re-matched numbered or at least marked with the GW3 acceptance. Impetus to replace most sears have to do with making functional/improving the trigger pull. When this occurred is unknown; but, negates this example's originality even as a legitimate 3rd Reich rework. - Less troublesome is the addition of an unmatched Aluminum bottom mag. It is unclear whether this is a bright, tin colored tube or a blued tube mag. and what acceptance marks/suffix accompany the numeric 6050 on the base(droop E/63, dE154, SE63, etc.). A mismatched mag is all too common in the rigs known today; but, it retains its intrinsic value as a (presumed) WW2 mag. and enhances the completeness of the "rig". Also, if a "takedown", skatekey like, tool accompanies this rig, it would add to the rigs value. The key is normally found in the pouch inside the holster's bucket top. Your 1934 holster probably also provides an extra flap for a pin punch and extra patches to be carried. - Without hard documentation, the story becomes only an "educated" guess. As to this Rig's value for Insurance purposes, any evaluation from pictures (without seeing the firearm/holster) and true overall condition of the example is frought with hazards....not the least of which is a universe of dissenting opinions. However, IMHO $1500 comes to mind. This is not what it could be sold for (maybe $900 +/- $200) nor what it is worth nor is this to be considered an offer; but, should adequately cover an equivalent replacement's cost at some time in the future. As you have expressed, the sentimental value has already outweighed any nominal amount. - Trust this illuminates some provenience of this example. Respectfully, Bob