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Doubs · 07-14-2002, 10:33 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Herb:
<strong>The numbers on matching magazines would not be repeated until 270,000 Lugers were manufactured. This is calculated on 10,000 Lugers in a production run using the 26 letters in the alphabet plus the 10,000 Luger magazines in the first run that had no suffix letters. There are the matching spares but they had the number '2' added, so I don't count them. Since the magazine design changed over the years, from nickel with wood bases, to blue with aluminum bases, plastic bases, different types, stamped, extruded, etc., I seriously doubt that 'several' magazines of the correct period existed. If, in fact, several magazines with exactly the same number/letter combination were made in each of the different periods of evolution then how can anyone be certain that any 'all matching' Luger does in fact have the exact magazine it was originally issued with, or did some fortunate individual locate a correct mag with the correct number for his Luger from the 'several' out there? <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

I refer you to page 15 of Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers" where observed serial number blocks are reported. There is no evidence, based on the shown information, to indicate that the full alphabet was ever used by either manufacturer in any given year. Note also that with the beginning of each year's production, the serial number sequence started all over again with 1, no suffix. If 1915 ended with the letter "l", as indicated in the chart, the first production of 1916 did not continue the sequence with "l" or follow with "m". 1916 began with number 1, no suffix. In no year did production actually reach your theoretical 270,000 Lugers. (Note that there is no letter "j" as the letters "i" and "j" interchange in the German alphabet.) Also note the estimated production for each year; only three of the years actually exceed 100,000 units..... a far cry from 270,000. In fact, estimated TOTAL production by DWM during the Imperial years is little more than twice 270,000 at 588,000.

As there should be no confusion between DWM and Erfurt produced mags because of the different way in which each manufacturer marked the mag base, I'll concentrate on DWM. Note that in 1915, standard Luger production and LP production overlapped on two blocks; no suffix and "a". Therefore each DWM ns and "a" production pistol has 4 serially matching mags out there. In 1916 the overlap extends to block "b" and in 1917, the overlap is a whopping 14 blocks! Every DWM Luger produced in 1917 from ns through "n" has 4 matching mags! 1918 only overlaps 6 blocks.

So, not only do we have identical serial numbers year after year from 1912 through 1918, we also have duplication within many of those years.

Kenyon, Still and Jones all agree that throughout production of Imperial Lugers, ALL magazines were made of crimped sheetmetal with wooden bottoms pinned at the rear. In other words, they were all made the same. However, Still reports that the semi-polished finish of 1912 gave way to an unfinished mag by 1918. Exactly when the change took place is unclear but certainly we can expect the semi-polished finish to have been through 1916 and possibly 1917. Therefore, how do you tell if a magazine was made in 1912, 1913, 1914 etc? I don't think anyone can with any degree of certainty.

Military issue matching spares used the "+" symbol and not "2". Police issue mags used "1" and "2". The magazine marked "+" is also numbered to, and issued with, the pistol so why wouldn't you consider it to be a "match"? Is a pistol with a "+" marked mag less desireable than one with a mag that is without the "+"? If it's one of the two mags issued with the pistol, it's a matching mag.

I've remained in the Imperial period because it's what I'm familiar with. Mauser produced Lugers may or may not be easier to mag-match with greater certainty. I'm really not up to snuff on them but I think it's clear that the chance of matching an Imperial Luger with precisely the mag the gun was issued with is less than favorable based on the odds.

07-14-2002, 10:33 PM	#34
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	[quote]Originally posted by Herb: <strong>The numbers on matching magazines would not be repeated until 270,000 Lugers were manufactured. This is calculated on 10,000 Lugers in a production run using the 26 letters in the alphabet plus the 10,000 Luger magazines in the first run that had no suffix letters. There are the matching spares but they had the number '2' added, so I don't count them. Since the magazine design changed over the years, from nickel with wood bases, to blue with aluminum bases, plastic bases, different types, stamped, extruded, etc., I seriously doubt that 'several' magazines of the correct period existed. If, in fact, several magazines with exactly the same number/letter combination were made in each of the different periods of evolution then how can anyone be certain that any 'all matching' Luger does in fact have the exact magazine it was originally issued with, or did some fortunate individual locate a correct mag with the correct number for his Luger from the 'several' out there? <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote> I refer you to page 15 of Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers" where observed serial number blocks are reported. There is no evidence, based on the shown information, to indicate that the full alphabet was ever used by either manufacturer in any given year. Note also that with the beginning of each year's production, the serial number sequence started all over again with 1, no suffix. If 1915 ended with the letter "l", as indicated in the chart, the first production of 1916 did not continue the sequence with "l" or follow with "m". 1916 began with number 1, no suffix. In no year did production actually reach your theoretical 270,000 Lugers. (Note that there is no letter "j" as the letters "i" and "j" interchange in the German alphabet.) Also note the estimated production for each year; only three of the years actually exceed 100,000 units..... a far cry from 270,000. In fact, estimated TOTAL production by DWM during the Imperial years is little more than twice 270,000 at 588,000. As there should be no confusion between DWM and Erfurt produced mags because of the different way in which each manufacturer marked the mag base, I'll concentrate on DWM. Note that in 1915, standard Luger production and LP production overlapped on two blocks; no suffix and "a". Therefore each DWM ns and "a" production pistol has 4 serially matching mags out there. In 1916 the overlap extends to block "b" and in 1917, the overlap is a whopping 14 blocks! Every DWM Luger produced in 1917 from ns through "n" has 4 matching mags! 1918 only overlaps 6 blocks. So, not only do we have identical serial numbers year after year from 1912 through 1918, we also have duplication within many of those years. Kenyon, Still and Jones all agree that throughout production of Imperial Lugers, ALL magazines were made of crimped sheetmetal with wooden bottoms pinned at the rear. In other words, they were all made the same. However, Still reports that the semi-polished finish of 1912 gave way to an unfinished mag by 1918. Exactly when the change took place is unclear but certainly we can expect the semi-polished finish to have been through 1916 and possibly 1917. Therefore, how do you tell if a magazine was made in 1912, 1913, 1914 etc? I don't think anyone can with any degree of certainty. Military issue matching spares used the "+" symbol and not "2". Police issue mags used "1" and "2". The magazine marked "+" is also numbered to, and issued with, the pistol so why wouldn't you consider it to be a "match"? Is a pistol with a "+" marked mag less desireable than one with a mag that is without the "+"? If it's one of the two mags issued with the pistol, it's a matching mag. I've remained in the Imperial period because it's what I'm familiar with. Mauser produced Lugers may or may not be easier to mag-match with greater certainty. I'm really not up to snuff on them but I think it's clear that the chance of matching an Imperial Luger with precisely the mag the gun was issued with is less than favorable based on the odds.