LugerForum Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Witness Marks Report--Revised and Expanded

Heydrich · 09-08-2003, 09:55 AM

I believe an important historical issue is being overlooked here. This is the assumption that the Germans of the 20th century in industry, government, and the military always followed orders and written directives. Nothing could be further from the truth. I grew up in a German family, have traveled, talked to citizens and veterans, avidly read, and it’s a huge myth that German society (even the bootlicking Third Reich) was a model of order, discipline, and the perceived culture of robots that always followed orders. Even in the firing squad regulated German Army of WW2, there were instances were even Hitler’s orders were intentionally ignored or circumvented, even when the recipients knew they might be shot otherwise. (Check out Warlimont’s great book, Inside Hitler’s Headquarters for this long-term pattern of insubordination to Hitler.) The Third Reich was actually a pretty corrupt place overall, and lots of people blew off orders, ad-libbed, and sometimes just did whatever the hell they felt like.

This was especially true in German industry. Bribes, kickbacks, using slave labor and prisoners, snuggling up to that abomination Himmler (i.e. gutter morals), duplicity like the MP44, etc. Watch Schindler’s List again, and check out some of the shady things that went on in corners of German industry. German industrialists also tended to be rock hard stubborn and insulated when it came to how they did things. An example here is the Walther family disregarding the German Army instructions on the design limitations of the G41W. (See that section in Weaver’s book for details.) This leaves us with two facts: the German arm’s factories sometimes went their own way when they really felt like it, and even orders from a guy like Hitler could be ignored. So flat out just because there was a “German Army instruction” or “directive” that P.08 production was to be done a certain way, does not mean it was being followed.

And with all the discrepancies that everyone admits to, is it a stretch saying that these P.08 instructions were probably not being followed?

This post in no way is meant to degrade that outstanding first article of yours up there Dwight. Reads like the work of an intellectual.

09-08-2003, 09:55 AM	#5
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I believe an important historical issue is being overlooked here. This is the assumption that the Germans of the 20th century in industry, government, and the military always followed orders and written directives. Nothing could be further from the truth. I grew up in a German family, have traveled, talked to citizens and veterans, avidly read, and it’s a huge myth that German society (even the bootlicking Third Reich) was a model of order, discipline, and the perceived culture of robots that always followed orders. Even in the firing squad regulated German Army of WW2, there were instances were even Hitler’s orders were intentionally ignored or circumvented, even when the recipients knew they might be shot otherwise. (Check out Warlimont’s great book, Inside Hitler’s Headquarters for this long-term pattern of insubordination to Hitler.) The Third Reich was actually a pretty corrupt place overall, and lots of people blew off orders, ad-libbed, and sometimes just did whatever the hell they felt like. This was especially true in German industry. Bribes, kickbacks, using slave labor and prisoners, snuggling up to that abomination Himmler (i.e. gutter morals), duplicity like the MP44, etc. Watch Schindler’s List again, and check out some of the shady things that went on in corners of German industry. German industrialists also tended to be rock hard stubborn and insulated when it came to how they did things. An example here is the Walther family disregarding the German Army instructions on the design limitations of the G41W. (See that section in Weaver’s book for details.) This leaves us with two facts: the German arm’s factories sometimes went their own way when they really felt like it, and even orders from a guy like Hitler could be ignored. So flat out just because there was a “German Army instruction” or “directive” that P.08 production was to be done a certain way, does not mean it was being followed. And with all the discrepancies that everyone admits to, is it a stretch saying that these P.08 instructions were probably not being followed? This post in no way is meant to degrade that outstanding first article of yours up there Dwight. Reads like the work of an intellectual.