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Doubs · 02-19-2004, 11:27 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dwight Gruber:
Herb and Doubs,

About the Crown/N, you are both right. The difference is in the detail of the crown. The 1950 Suhl crown is different in detail from the 1906 Imperial Commercial proof crown.

Here is the comparison, the crown on the left is from the gun pictured above and has the characteristics of the Suhl corwn; the one on the right is an Alphabet Commercial.

...--Dwight<hr /></blockquote>Dwight, I agree...... and I respectfully disagree.

I agree that the difference is in the details and having a couple of E. German reworks with E. German replacement barrels, as well as a 1906 AE with pre-WW1 C/N proofs, this is what I see.

First, the E. German C/N proof is much lower on the barrel than the pre/post-WW1 C/N is stamped. There is a pronounced separation between the C & N of the E. German proof and it's followed by the three digit date. There are no other markings.... no serial number. Note how far up the barrel the C/N on the subject pistol is stamped. Much further than the E. German examples I have.

The Pre/Post-WW1 crown is more squat-looking than the narrower and more slender E. German crown. Moreover, the pre/post-WW1 crown has essentially a 5-sided pentagon in the center vs the more rounded spear-point of the E. German crown center.

Look closely at the E. German crown and you will see that the lines connecting the upper part of the "spear-point" to the outside border flow outward in a curve similar to the leaves of a fleur-de-lea. (Pete's illustration from "The Standard Dictionary of Proof Marks" shows the curve of the E. German crown quite clearly). The pre/post-WW1 lines are as straight as an arrow from the point of the pentagon to the outside shell.

The pentagon of the left proof from the subject pistol has straight lines and the connecting line is also straight..... the marks of a 1920 commercial Luger C/N proof.

I'd also point out that not all stamps will be exactly the same - as I'm sure everyone realizes - due to various factors such as different tool makers, wear etc. If the subject pistol was made in the late 1920's and the comparison pistol was made earlier, different stamps were likely used. The right-hand stamp seems to be from a much sharper die, IMO, but that could be the result of the photographic differences.

Don't overlook the other pictures that show all the ear-marks of a 1920 commercial (blank chamber, locking bolt numbered underneath, sideplate not numbered on the side and standing C/N on the left receiver wall) and NONE of the marks of an E. German rework except a poorly stamped C/N on the barrel in the wrong place to be E. German and that looks to me to be a pre/post-WW1 proof.

Note also that just under the serial number of the subject pistol is what appears to be a stamp over what possibly would be the suffix letter.... another characteristic of the 1920 commercial Luger. I have a 1917 Erfurt E. German re-work with the original Erfurt barrel. There are NO E. German stamps on the barrel at all. It was left original.

Finally, the pistol is claimed to have arrived in Norway during WW2 with German troops and it's still in Norway. For it to travel to E. Germany, be reworked and sent back to Norway is highly unlikely IMO.

02-19-2004, 11:27 PM	#9
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Dwight Gruber: <strong>Herb and Doubs, About the Crown/N, you are both right. The difference is in the detail of the crown. The 1950 Suhl crown is different in detail from the 1906 Imperial Commercial proof crown. Here is the comparison, the crown on the left is from the gun pictured above and has the characteristics of the Suhl corwn; the one on the right is an Alphabet Commercial. ...--Dwight</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dwight, I agree...... and I respectfully disagree. I agree that the difference is in the details and having a couple of E. German reworks with E. German replacement barrels, as well as a 1906 AE with pre-WW1 C/N proofs, this is what I see. First, the E. German C/N proof is much lower on the barrel than the pre/post-WW1 C/N is stamped. There is a pronounced separation between the C & N of the E. German proof and it's followed by the three digit date. There are no other markings.... no serial number. Note how far up the barrel the C/N on the subject pistol is stamped. Much further than the E. German examples I have. The Pre/Post-WW1 crown is more squat-looking than the narrower and more slender E. German crown. Moreover, the pre/post-WW1 crown has essentially a 5-sided pentagon in the center vs the more rounded spear-point of the E. German crown center. Look closely at the E. German crown and you will see that the lines connecting the upper part of the "spear-point" to the outside border flow outward in a curve similar to the leaves of a fleur-de-lea. (Pete's illustration from "The Standard Dictionary of Proof Marks" shows the curve of the E. German crown quite clearly). The pre/post-WW1 lines are as straight as an arrow from the point of the pentagon to the outside shell. The pentagon of the left proof from the subject pistol has straight lines and the connecting line is also straight..... the marks of a 1920 commercial Luger C/N proof. I'd also point out that not all stamps will be exactly the same - as I'm sure everyone realizes - due to various factors such as different tool makers, wear etc. If the subject pistol was made in the late 1920's and the comparison pistol was made earlier, different stamps were likely used. The right-hand stamp seems to be from a much sharper die, IMO, but that could be the result of the photographic differences. Don't overlook the other pictures that show all the ear-marks of a 1920 commercial (blank chamber, locking bolt numbered underneath, sideplate not numbered on the side and standing C/N on the left receiver wall) and NONE of the marks of an E. German rework except a poorly stamped C/N on the barrel in the wrong place to be E. German and that looks to me to be a pre/post-WW1 proof. Note also that just under the serial number of the subject pistol is what appears to be a stamp over what possibly would be the suffix letter.... another characteristic of the 1920 commercial Luger. I have a 1917 Erfurt E. German re-work with the original Erfurt barrel. There are NO E. German stamps on the barrel at all. It was left original. Finally, the pistol is claimed to have arrived in Norway during WW2 with German troops and it's still in Norway. For it to travel to E. Germany, be reworked and sent back to Norway is highly unlikely IMO.