LugerForum Discussion Forums - View Single Post - California/Maryland/Massachusetts compliant?

mrerick · 04-05-2020, 11:08 AM

You need to look up the statutes that have been passed and apply to the jurisdiction where you live.

Sometimes the overview summaries can be useful, but you need to get the actual statutes. First, here's an overview:

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/res...p/dc-gun-laws/

THIS LINK will get you to the actual DC statutes.

THIS LINK will get you to a list of what can be registered.

Then THIS SECTION goes on to refer to registration of ONLY those pistols that are on the California roster. That is an odd way of delegating sovereignty from the District to a state (likely the most restrictive in the nation, obviously).

Section E 1 of this statute says that the prohibition does NOT apply to Curios and Relics.

"(e) This section shall not apply to:
(1) Firearms defined as curios or relics, as defined in 27 C.F.R. § 478.11;"

The section it refers to is a Federal statute. The Code of Federal Regulations. This is the law that authorizes the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. (ATF).

It defines the "meaning of terms" in the regulations. See THIS LINK.

Under "Curio and Relic" is defined as:

Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;

(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

Wartime Luger pistols ARE curios and relics based simply on age alone. But, sections (b) and (c) allow for the ATF to designate curio and relic firearms as well.

The ATF does this all the time, and publishes a list of what they have approved. They also issue ruling letters for individuals that want to have a firearm designated C&R.

The comprehensive list through 2007 is at: https://www.atf.gov/file/2026/download

The most current (2018) list update is at: https://www.atf.gov/file/128116/download

An overview of the C&R rules and list links are at: http://https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics

On this list, you will also find all the Lugers manufactured by the 1970's Mauser company.

The regulations don't appear to require Lugers to be transferred in Washington DC under C&R FFL Licenses, just transferred through a FFL in the District. If you had a C&R FFL you could accept the transfer, but would still be subject to the rest of their regulations.

Note that the ATF rules for a C&R collector licensee require you to follow all local laws. So, for you to take possession of the Luger as a C&R licensee, you must first get the registration certificate from your Chief of Police. In effect, you must register it before you accept the package containing it.

Your local Class 01 business FFL or the police office that registers guns should be able to confirm all this.

If you think this is intentionally complex and byzantine you are absolutely right. See.... buying a gun is as easy as ordering it on the Internet.

I work on helping update North Carolina statutes as a director with Grass Roots North Carolina GRNC, so I'm used to wading through statutes like this. You can see how difficult it is to answer a simple question. Many citizens give up instead of pursuing their rights to collect Lugers and such.

For your further entertainment: Jabberwocky

04-05-2020, 11:08 AM	#11
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,920 Thanks: 1,377 Thanked 3,135 Times in 1,518 Posts	Let's go down the rabbit hole together.... You need to look up the statutes that have been passed and apply to the jurisdiction where you live. Sometimes the overview summaries can be useful, but you need to get the actual statutes. First, here's an overview: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/res...p/dc-gun-laws/ THIS LINK will get you to the actual DC statutes. THIS LINK will get you to a list of what can be registered. Then THIS SECTION goes on to refer to registration of ONLY those pistols that are on the California roster. That is an odd way of delegating sovereignty from the District to a state (likely the most restrictive in the nation, obviously). Section E 1 of this statute says that the prohibition does NOT apply to Curios and Relics. "(e) This section shall not apply to: (1) Firearms defined as curios or relics, as defined in 27 C.F.R. § 478.11;" The section it refers to is a Federal statute. The Code of Federal Regulations. This is the law that authorizes the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. (ATF). It defines the "meaning of terms" in the regulations. See THIS LINK. Under "Curio and Relic" is defined as: Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories: (a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof; (b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and (c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less. Wartime Luger pistols ARE curios and relics based simply on age alone. But, sections (b) and (c) allow for the ATF to designate curio and relic firearms as well. The ATF does this all the time, and publishes a list of what they have approved. They also issue ruling letters for individuals that want to have a firearm designated C&R. The comprehensive list through 2007 is at: https://www.atf.gov/file/2026/download The most current (2018) list update is at: https://www.atf.gov/file/128116/download An overview of the C&R rules and list links are at: http://https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics On this list, you will also find all the Lugers manufactured by the 1970's Mauser company. The regulations don't appear to require Lugers to be transferred in Washington DC under C&R FFL Licenses, just transferred through a FFL in the District. If you had a C&R FFL you could accept the transfer, but would still be subject to the rest of their regulations. Note that the ATF rules for a C&R collector licensee require you to follow all local laws. So, for you to take possession of the Luger as a C&R licensee, you must first get the registration certificate from your Chief of Police. In effect, you must register it before you accept the package containing it. Your local Class 01 business FFL or the police office that registers guns should be able to confirm all this. If you think this is intentionally complex and byzantine you are absolutely right. See.... buying a gun is as easy as ordering it on the Internet. I work on helping update North Carolina statutes as a director with Grass Roots North Carolina GRNC, so I'm used to wading through statutes like this. You can see how difficult it is to answer a simple question. Many citizens give up instead of pursuing their rights to collect Lugers and such. For your further entertainment: Jabberwocky __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.