Quote:
Originally Posted by hacker51
I hate to bust everyone's bubble here downing the originality of the two black widow mags or the Luger it's self. This luger is a vet bring back. I know everyone has there own opinion.
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Peter,
Further to Doug's post, collecting and this board is not about "bursting anyone's bubble". It's about providing the best possible information based on the data that is presented.
Now...with respect to the statements about FACTORY originality and the piece being a VET BRINGBACK, there is nothing mutual exclusive. Both statements can be true. Equally, it is not valid to assume that all "Black Widows" were manufacturered in the USA.
Please recognize that walnut grips were extremely fragile. Just ask any collector who has splintered one while removing it. Replacement grips were walnut or plastic. Replacing grips is one of the most common field maintenance tasks.
Following close behind in combat situations is the loss or damage to the magazines. Again replacements in this time frame were Haenel types, most with black plastic bottoms.
So the vet could have acquired the piece as it exists here without it being factory original.
But, vets like war stories. I know as I am a combat vet. While not common, it is not unknown for a vet to add an SS Badge to war trophy. Or claim, a piece was taken from a Gestapo agent or SS Colonel. Or swap out some pieces to say it was a SS weapon. I never heard of anyone who said the gun was taken from some Feldwebel even though they were the probable rank; as Field Grade Officers would never be caught dead wearing a P.08. Or most likely picked out of a stack of P.08s laying in a warehouse or courtyard. Guns in one pile and magazines, accessories in other piles.
Now, I am not saying that any of the above is the real story. But we have to rely on data and statistics. Thousands, if not 10's of thousands, of P.08s have been studied, examined and recorded. Records exist of orders issued by various levels of command affecting the production of the P.08. We also identify manufacturing changes that have occurred within Mauser. From all this data, we collectors infer things.
Like; we know an order was issued at a date but implementation was phased in. Then we look at serial numbers in a stream of production to identify about when changes occurred. Then we develop patterns; e.g. we see two P.08s with the same characteristics and then observe a serial number between them. If it has the same characteristics, we say that it is "probably" original. If it displays differing characteristics then we begin to suspect a subsequent action created the piece and that it did not leave the factory that way. Equally, on higher level we can develop generalities and probabilities based on statistics.
Just wanted you to know that we collectors do not take any joy in bursting bubbles. We love guns and collecting. But collecting is all about knowing what you are collecting. And...unfortunately collecting costs money and the value of a piece is significantly affected by its degree of originality. So..we pay a lot a attention to the adjectives used in describing a particular piece.
Apologies for using so many words.
Hope this helps.
John