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lugerholsterrepair · 02-07-2004, 12:42 PM

I cannot believe this Gentleman has the unmitigited gall to perpetuate this attack on Jan Still's excellent publication, Third Reich Lugers ,on this Forum. It was bad enough the first time he did it on Jan's Forum but this is too much! This is not an educated review but a childish attempt to cast mud on a man and his work. This is malice in it's basis form. Curt, you should be ashamed.

Below you will find a copy of Jan Stills reply to this.

Posted - 02/04/2004 : 5:20:18 PM
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Curt
Thanks for your review of the â??inconsistencies in Third Reich Lugersâ?
Page 145: ....â?not K98...obviously have the 29 inch barrels, not the 24 inchers.â?
JS: I used the term in a generic since and am not knowledge enough to make a barrel length determination from such a photograph. However, it is clear that some of the rifles have shorter barrels than others.
â??Is that a BAR on the lower right?â?
JS: I am not an expert on the BAR but the pistol grip, rear sight and forward curve of the magazine do not suggest a BAR.

Page 37 rig. â??That rig doesnâ??t seem collector grade.â?
JS:This was the best I could find at the time that I put the book together and it does show all the characteristics of the 1935 dated police holster. Third Reich Lugers has been out for over 15 years (I have had thousands of comments on it) and this is the first time that I have been attacked for the condition of the lugers or accessories shown. (Curt, you must have a much better rig in your collection)
JS: As a personal note, I do not attack collectors pistols or accessories based on condition. Some collectors cannot afford the few pristine examples or are satisfied with less than perfect. I expect the same consideration from fellow collectors. This includes you Curt.

Page 85 issue. â??Still claims that the E/135 inspector came into the Mauser Oberndorf system in â??late 1941â?. More likely early 1942. Iâ??ve never seen a 1941 byf Kar.98k with an E/135.â?
JS: I have examined late production 41 byf Lugers that bear the E/135 stamp. They occur in the ns and â??aâ? suffix blocks. (See page 66, Third Reich Lugers.) Curt, donâ??t jump to conclusions concerning Luger production and dates based on a single data point from a Kar. 98.

Page 91 issue. I find the claims of â??out-of-sequenceâ? and â??non-standardâ? explanations for deviant P.08 examples very dubious.....The one on page 95 glares of a frame that some dude put a new toggle on. The whole section is possible fodder for a con artist.â?
JS: I am convinced that the out of sequence production Lugers shown and described on pages 91 to 96 are valid production Lugers. However, many collectors (including myself) do not collect such oddball Lugers. I also agree, that such out of sequence production Lugers, have become fodder for con artists.

Page 130 rig. â??Thatâ??s the cleaning kit for a naval issue Mauser rifle, not a pistol. Check out the length of the pull-through chain please.â?
JS: Please read the photo caption. It states that the Reinigungsgerat 34 cleaning kit is for pistols, rifles, and machine gunsâ?, not just pistols as your misquote indicates above.

Page 263 photo. Captain Witzig didnâ??t lead or even take part in the raid proper on Eben Emael. His glider developed problems and had to turn back.
JS: My information contradicts yours and at this point I will tend to rely on the expert that supplied the photograph.

Page 270 photo. You state that the Stukas in this photo are out to, â??hunt for Russian armor.â? What, without bombs? Propaganda photo. The only thing they are hunting for is a photo op.

JS: Perhaps the caption should read Stuka dive bombers â??returnâ? from hunt for Russian armor. I have a recollection that some German pilots used the cannon on their plane (in some cases) to destroy Russian tanks.

Page 268 photo. â??Here, these Stukas are â??strafing in support of a tank formationâ?. Thatâ??s a staged photo if I ever saw one. If what you claim is true, theyâ??re strafing their own cameraman and troop positions. (Check out the orientation of the German tank.)â?
JS: The strafing may have already occurred or may be about to occur. I do not see anything in the photograph that strongly contradicts the statement that came on the photograph.

Page 74 Luger: Iâ??ve never known a single collector who doesnâ??t think those Jap 42 code Lugers are not fakes. No Jap officer would have put the mum on his pistol, and as far as anyone can tell those â??imperial familyâ? characters are gibberish. Maybe Daffy Duckâ??s or Bugs Bunnyâ??s family.
JS: The end of the caption statesâ?Some researchers have serious reservations about the credibility of Japanese Lugers. It is shown to let the reader make his own judgement.â?
I agree that I should have made a stronger statement. It is now my opinion that all the Mauser-Japanese Lugers are fakes. A better statement would be â?? All or almost all researchers agree that the Mauser-Japanese Lugers are fakes.â?

Page 64 Luger. That Croatian 369 checkerboard stamp looks suspicious to me, and to claim the pistol once belonged to a Croat in that exact unit seems like a big leap of faith. (As are one or two remarks on the Kreighoffs, but thatâ??s another matter.) The screw holding the grip on looks like itâ??s from the local hardware store. That stamp looks like the logo for State Farm Insurance too, but they probably didnâ??t possess it either.
JS: I would suggest that you read Buxton Volume I. He describes and shows Walther HPâ??s that bear a similar crest. Klaus Schad conducted research on a similar Luger for sale in Europe. The Croation 369th fought with the Germans on the Eastern front and had special permission to put the Croation 369 crest on their helmets. .

Page 117 photo: The remark about horses being â??replacedâ? by the motorcycle in the photo description is misleading. The Germans actually used more horses in WW2 than they did in WW1.
JS: I did not make the statement that you claim. The complete caption statement is â??During World War II, the motorcycle replaced the horse for forward reconnaissance and dispatch riding and was an important component of the lightning war.â? That is a correct statement.

Page 71 photo. There is no indication that the generic members of a German WW2 machine gun team were issued pistols, either in part or whole. Some certainly came by them, but according to all the German veterans Iâ??ve talked to, non-commissioned troops got a Kar rifle issued ubiquitously and pretty much exclusively. The Germans had a different tactical doctrine than anyone else in WW2; it was the job of the riflemen to support the machine gun, not the other way around.
JS: German World War II veterans are not always a reliable source of information. Most are in their 70's and 80's and do not necessarily remember the details. Period photographs (see page 48, Third Reich Lugers.)and manuals (latest dated 1931) support the statement made on page 71 of Third Reich Lugers concerning the pistol armed members of the Machine gun crew.
Whittington on page 288 of â??German Pistols and Holstersâ? states that issue â??9mm, 7.63mm,and 11.25mm pistols.....generally issued to units..expected to be engaged in or near front line operations. Examples of such units are: Infantry units (machine gunners and others)â?

Curt
I find that some of your criticism is well founded, much is half baked and reflects your lack of knowledge and study, and some is smart aleck and obnoxious and has no place on this Forum. Please do not post on this Forum if you cannot refrain from the latter.
Jan C. Still
(I remember your comments when I left the old Luger Forum, you said something like â??pissing on the candles of your birthday cakeâ?)

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Jan C Still
Site Owner - Operator

02-07-2004, 12:42 PM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,775 Thanks: 4,995 Thanked 3,133 Times in 1,439 Posts	I cannot believe this Gentleman has the unmitigited gall to perpetuate this attack on Jan Still's excellent publication, Third Reich Lugers ,on this Forum. It was bad enough the first time he did it on Jan's Forum but this is too much! This is not an educated review but a childish attempt to cast mud on a man and his work. This is malice in it's basis form. Curt, you should be ashamed. Below you will find a copy of Jan Stills reply to this. Posted - 02/04/2004 : 5:20:18 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Curt Thanks for your review of the â??inconsistencies in Third Reich Lugersâ? Page 145: ....â?not K98...obviously have the 29 inch barrels, not the 24 inchers.â? JS: I used the term in a generic since and am not knowledge enough to make a barrel length determination from such a photograph. However, it is clear that some of the rifles have shorter barrels than others. â??Is that a BAR on the lower right?â? JS: I am not an expert on the BAR but the pistol grip, rear sight and forward curve of the magazine do not suggest a BAR. Page 37 rig. â??That rig doesnâ??t seem collector grade.â? JS:This was the best I could find at the time that I put the book together and it does show all the characteristics of the 1935 dated police holster. Third Reich Lugers has been out for over 15 years (I have had thousands of comments on it) and this is the first time that I have been attacked for the condition of the lugers or accessories shown. (Curt, you must have a much better rig in your collection) JS: As a personal note, I do not attack collectors pistols or accessories based on condition. Some collectors cannot afford the few pristine examples or are satisfied with less than perfect. I expect the same consideration from fellow collectors. This includes you Curt. Page 85 issue. â??Still claims that the E/135 inspector came into the Mauser Oberndorf system in â??late 1941â?. More likely early 1942. Iâ??ve never seen a 1941 byf Kar.98k with an E/135.â? JS: I have examined late production 41 byf Lugers that bear the E/135 stamp. They occur in the ns and â??aâ? suffix blocks. (See page 66, Third Reich Lugers.) Curt, donâ??t jump to conclusions concerning Luger production and dates based on a single data point from a Kar. 98. Page 91 issue. I find the claims of â??out-of-sequenceâ? and â??non-standardâ? explanations for deviant P.08 examples very dubious.....The one on page 95 glares of a frame that some dude put a new toggle on. The whole section is possible fodder for a con artist.â? JS: I am convinced that the out of sequence production Lugers shown and described on pages 91 to 96 are valid production Lugers. However, many collectors (including myself) do not collect such oddball Lugers. I also agree, that such out of sequence production Lugers, have become fodder for con artists. Page 130 rig. â??Thatâ??s the cleaning kit for a naval issue Mauser rifle, not a pistol. Check out the length of the pull-through chain please.â? JS: Please read the photo caption. It states that the Reinigungsgerat 34 cleaning kit is for pistols, rifles, and machine gunsâ?, not just pistols as your misquote indicates above. Page 263 photo. Captain Witzig didnâ??t lead or even take part in the raid proper on Eben Emael. His glider developed problems and had to turn back. JS: My information contradicts yours and at this point I will tend to rely on the expert that supplied the photograph. Page 270 photo. You state that the Stukas in this photo are out to, â??hunt for Russian armor.â? What, without bombs? Propaganda photo. The only thing they are hunting for is a photo op. JS: Perhaps the caption should read Stuka dive bombers â??returnâ? from hunt for Russian armor. I have a recollection that some German pilots used the cannon on their plane (in some cases) to destroy Russian tanks. Page 268 photo. â??Here, these Stukas are â??strafing in support of a tank formationâ?. Thatâ??s a staged photo if I ever saw one. If what you claim is true, theyâ??re strafing their own cameraman and troop positions. (Check out the orientation of the German tank.)â? JS: The strafing may have already occurred or may be about to occur. I do not see anything in the photograph that strongly contradicts the statement that came on the photograph. Page 74 Luger: Iâ??ve never known a single collector who doesnâ??t think those Jap 42 code Lugers are not fakes. No Jap officer would have put the mum on his pistol, and as far as anyone can tell those â??imperial familyâ? characters are gibberish. Maybe Daffy Duckâ??s or Bugs Bunnyâ??s family. JS: The end of the caption statesâ?Some researchers have serious reservations about the credibility of Japanese Lugers. It is shown to let the reader make his own judgement.â? I agree that I should have made a stronger statement. It is now my opinion that all the Mauser-Japanese Lugers are fakes. A better statement would be â?? All or almost all researchers agree that the Mauser-Japanese Lugers are fakes.â? Page 64 Luger. That Croatian 369 checkerboard stamp looks suspicious to me, and to claim the pistol once belonged to a Croat in that exact unit seems like a big leap of faith. (As are one or two remarks on the Kreighoffs, but thatâ??s another matter.) The screw holding the grip on looks like itâ??s from the local hardware store. That stamp looks like the logo for State Farm Insurance too, but they probably didnâ??t possess it either. JS: I would suggest that you read Buxton Volume I. He describes and shows Walther HPâ??s that bear a similar crest. Klaus Schad conducted research on a similar Luger for sale in Europe. The Croation 369th fought with the Germans on the Eastern front and had special permission to put the Croation 369 crest on their helmets. . Page 117 photo: The remark about horses being â??replacedâ? by the motorcycle in the photo description is misleading. The Germans actually used more horses in WW2 than they did in WW1. JS: I did not make the statement that you claim. The complete caption statement is â??During World War II, the motorcycle replaced the horse for forward reconnaissance and dispatch riding and was an important component of the lightning war.â? That is a correct statement. Page 71 photo. There is no indication that the generic members of a German WW2 machine gun team were issued pistols, either in part or whole. Some certainly came by them, but according to all the German veterans Iâ??ve talked to, non-commissioned troops got a Kar rifle issued ubiquitously and pretty much exclusively. The Germans had a different tactical doctrine than anyone else in WW2; it was the job of the riflemen to support the machine gun, not the other way around. JS: German World War II veterans are not always a reliable source of information. Most are in their 70's and 80's and do not necessarily remember the details. Period photographs (see page 48, Third Reich Lugers.)and manuals (latest dated 1931) support the statement made on page 71 of Third Reich Lugers concerning the pistol armed members of the Machine gun crew. Whittington on page 288 of â??German Pistols and Holstersâ? states that issue â??9mm, 7.63mm,and 11.25mm pistols.....generally issued to units..expected to be engaged in or near front line operations. Examples of such units are: Infantry units (machine gunners and others)â? Curt I find that some of your criticism is well founded, much is half baked and reflects your lack of knowledge and study, and some is smart aleck and obnoxious and has no place on this Forum. Please do not post on this Forum if you cannot refrain from the latter. Jan C. Still (I remember your comments when I left the old Luger Forum, you said something like â??pissing on the candles of your birthday cakeâ?) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jan C Still Site Owner - Operator __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."