</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by MauserLugers:
[QB]So what is the C/16 ?
So what do I have and who reworked it and when? Is it a correct variation? I know the 7 (smaller) was added to the serial number on the right side of the breech and the rear toggle assembly, but the barrel serial number (709) looks all original, as does the frame serial number (709) and are of the same style.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Bill,
I wish there was a real expert on these guns here, what I have to say comes mostly from "The Dutch Luger" except where noted. I'm going to say "if" a lot in what follows, as these guns were reworked and parts renumbered many times during their lifetimes, and I haven't actually examined your gun.
IMO what you have is a representitive Dutch Luger with a Vickers toggle train. It was assembled from the parts at hand during its most recent re-work by the Central Small Arms Arsenal at Bandoeng, number-matched and/or re-numbered as a complete pistol, and likely served in its present configuration. It is nearly impossible to determine when this rework might have occurred.
If the frame bears its original serial number, it was part of the original DWM Dutch contract, delivered in 1912. The receiver is from a later gun, as the Crown/W was stamped on the right receiver of guns serial# 1 through 2141--could be a DWM, could be a Vickers, but not later as the KOL contract series was Crown/N stamped.
There is a strong possibility that the frame number has been changed (which would alter my assessment, above). The C-over-number marking has been noted on different parts of Vickers Lugers, its meaning is unknown. It has been speculated that the number represents the year of manufacture of the part, however the higher numbers like C/24 make this unlikely as the contract had been fulfilled long before. John Walter in "The Luger Story" speculates that these marks identify parts subcontractors; Martens and de Vries note similar marks on comparable components of P-04 and P-08 WWI vintage service pistols of DWM manufacture.
The left grip appears to be a Vickers grip, it is in the proper number range with the GS mark. The right grip is probably off a DWM contract pistol, or a DWM replacement part.
The barrel markings definitely do not match what one would expect to see on an original Vickers barrel (see the closeup in my original post). KNIL army regulations presumed barrel lifetime to be six or seven years, and Dutch Lugers were frequently rebarrelled. Iirc (I cannot track down the source to cite) it is not common to find a Vickers with an original barrel.
Your photos aren't sufficiently clear to see the detail of the marking. You note that it "appears to be" a Crown/V, does it match the Crown/V on the toggles, or could it possibly be a different mark?
I wouldn't put too much stock in the barrel number and the frame number being in the same style. My own Dutch Lugers have stamps of several different styles, some match the DWM or Vickers style and some don't. -If- your frame has been re-numbered, and -if- the barrel was numbered at or near the same time, they would likely share the same style.
I just noted, you say the gun has a serial# on the right side of the breech?? This would be unusual.
This discussion is making me crave to see good, sharp closeups of the marks under the barrel and the front of the frame.
You are making me learn all sorts of things here!
--Dwight
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