LugerForum Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Borchardt-Luger Controversy

Doubs · 08-23-2002, 11:48 PM

Johnny,

The rim and base of the cartridge do not contact the breechface while being fed into the chamber until the final movement of the toggle train places the extractor over the rim. Working the action slowly enough under a magnifier lamp clearly shows a small gap between the breechface and the cartridge. The rim is held away from contact with the breechface by the forward lip of the breech and the cartridge rim rides the lip until the base is square with the breechface. Now the cartridge becomes fully seated in the chamber and the extractor enters the groove. That's when contact with the breechface actually happens.

I've never claimed that the cartridge jumped ahead of the breech or lost contact with it. I said "When the bullet comes in contact - forcefully - with the chamber face, there is a mechanical "jump" of the cartridge upward. At the same time, the breech is still pushing forward on the cartridge and forces the nose of the bullet, as it jumps upward, into the chamber. The chamber centers the cartridge and in the final movement of the toggle train into battery, the extractor rides up and over the rim as the base of the cartridge seats in the recess of the breechface."

I agree that the rim starts to elevate the extractor as the cartridge begins to straighten in the chamber but the extractor does not slip over the rim until the cartridge is fully seated in the chamber and the toggle train is in it's final 1/10th inch of travel. That, too, can be seen clearly if worked slowly enough.

Unspellable,

Because the rim doesn't contact the breechface until the cartridge is square in the chamber and seated, I'm not sure the projection of the firing pin would impede the rim. It looks as though it *might* but I don't have a defective firing pin available to experiment with. As for parts breakage, anything mechanical can and will break. The designer could "what if" himself to death and never produce a thing. They make it as safe as humanly possible and go on.

I don't agree that the Luger extractor would be hurt by repeatedly riding over rims. Looking at the design makes me believe that Georg Luger made it to do just that. He didn't have the advantage of high speed cameras for time and motion studies so it's reasonable to believe that he designed the extractor to slip over the rim as often as necessary. Many of today's best semi-autos have extractors designed that way. The Browning Hi-Power began with a controlled feed extractor but now is made with an extractor designed to slip over the rim.

08-23-2002, 11:48 PM	#71
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,736 Thanks: 819 Thanked 1,769 Times in 586 Posts	Johnny, The rim and base of the cartridge do not contact the breechface while being fed into the chamber until the final movement of the toggle train places the extractor over the rim. Working the action slowly enough under a magnifier lamp clearly shows a small gap between the breechface and the cartridge. The rim is held away from contact with the breechface by the forward lip of the breech and the cartridge rim rides the lip until the base is square with the breechface. Now the cartridge becomes fully seated in the chamber and the extractor enters the groove. That's when contact with the breechface actually happens. I've never claimed that the cartridge jumped ahead of the breech or lost contact with it. I said "When the bullet comes in contact - forcefully - with the chamber face, there is a mechanical "jump" of the cartridge upward. At the same time, the breech is still pushing forward on the cartridge and forces the nose of the bullet, as it jumps upward, into the chamber. The chamber centers the cartridge and in the final movement of the toggle train into battery, the extractor rides up and over the rim as the base of the cartridge seats in the recess of the breechface." I agree that the rim starts to elevate the extractor as the cartridge begins to straighten in the chamber but the extractor does not slip over the rim until the cartridge is fully seated in the chamber and the toggle train is in it's final 1/10th inch of travel. That, too, can be seen clearly if worked slowly enough. Unspellable, Because the rim doesn't contact the breechface until the cartridge is square in the chamber and seated, I'm not sure the projection of the firing pin would impede the rim. It looks as though it might but I don't have a defective firing pin available to experiment with. As for parts breakage, anything mechanical can and will break. The designer could "what if" himself to death and never produce a thing. They make it as safe as humanly possible and go on. I don't agree that the Luger extractor would be hurt by repeatedly riding over rims. Looking at the design makes me believe that Georg Luger made it to do just that. He didn't have the advantage of high speed cameras for time and motion studies so it's reasonable to believe that he designed the extractor to slip over the rim as often as necessary. Many of today's best semi-autos have extractors designed that way. The Browning Hi-Power began with a controlled feed extractor but now is made with an extractor designed to slip over the rim.