LugerForum Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Borchardt-Luger Controversy

Jerry Harris · 08-11-2002, 02:06 AM

May this thread rest in peace -- but not without a post-mortem, as follows:

I believe <everyone> who posted here knew from the beginning that the Maxim/Borchardt/Luger toggle cannot remain locked against the primary recoil shock except by its geometry, that is by having the center pivot lowered just enough to want to break downward against the receiver (barrel extension) sides which block it solidly until the knobs are bumped upward against the ramps.

Many hundreds of words (all worthy and well-reasoned) were expended at cross purposes with Kyrie because the function of "holding the toggle closed" or "holding the breech block in battery" has two distinct meanings. Meaning No.1 is holding the toggle closed against small handling forces before firing, and meaning No.2 is holding the toggle closed against a huge rearward force just after firing. Both are design necessities.

Kyrie seemed to think that those people describing (correctly) how the recoil spring helps significantly in holding closed against small disturbances (No.1) were somehow denying or overlooking the fact that a depressed pivot is required to hold closed against main recoil (No.2). That's why there were so many go-rounds.

Kyrie was right in pointing out that a slowly lowered toggle, robbed of all kinetic energy, stalls and won't complete the cocking cycle with either flat or coiled recoil spring. But Johnny and others were right in pointing out that once the action <is> closed and cocked, the preload in the recoil spring is really the only significant force preventing the toggle from being jarred into breaking slightly the wrong way again before the user decides to fire the gun, resulting in a dangerous premature blowback.

One last thing. Many toggle mechanisms used in industry, such as clamps and locking pliers, hold themselves closed by jamming and deflecting a little as they go over center. The Luger toggle doesn't do that, as can be checked by removing the cannon (here we go again), taking out the firing pin spring and closing the breech on a spent shell casing. The breech block still has a little clearance, and the toggle knobs will easily move away from locked position that critical small amount unless an external force keeps them down.

I think long, redundant discussions of how the Luger was developed and how it works are at least as interesting as long, redundant discussions about the minutiae of collecting. So my thanks to Kyrie, who started it all, and everyone else who contributed.

08-11-2002, 02:06 AM	#42
Jerry Harris User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 64 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	May this thread rest in peace -- but not without a post-mortem, as follows: I believe <everyone> who posted here knew from the beginning that the Maxim/Borchardt/Luger toggle cannot remain locked against the primary recoil shock except by its geometry, that is by having the center pivot lowered just enough to want to break downward against the receiver (barrel extension) sides which block it solidly until the knobs are bumped upward against the ramps. Many hundreds of words (all worthy and well-reasoned) were expended at cross purposes with Kyrie because the function of "holding the toggle closed" or "holding the breech block in battery" has two distinct meanings. Meaning No.1 is holding the toggle closed against small handling forces before firing, and meaning No.2 is holding the toggle closed against a huge rearward force just after firing. Both are design necessities. Kyrie seemed to think that those people describing (correctly) how the recoil spring helps significantly in holding closed against small disturbances (No.1) were somehow denying or overlooking the fact that a depressed pivot is required to hold closed against main recoil (No.2). That's why there were so many go-rounds. Kyrie was right in pointing out that a slowly lowered toggle, robbed of all kinetic energy, stalls and won't complete the cocking cycle with either flat or coiled recoil spring. But Johnny and others were right in pointing out that once the action <is> closed and cocked, the preload in the recoil spring is really the only significant force preventing the toggle from being jarred into breaking slightly the wrong way again before the user decides to fire the gun, resulting in a dangerous premature blowback. One last thing. Many toggle mechanisms used in industry, such as clamps and locking pliers, hold themselves closed by jamming and deflecting a little as they go over center. The Luger toggle doesn't do that, as can be checked by removing the cannon (here we go again), taking out the firing pin spring and closing the breech on a spent shell casing. The breech block still has a little clearance, and the toggle knobs will easily move away from locked position that critical small amount unless an external force keeps them down. I think long, redundant discussions of how the Luger was developed and how it works are at least as interesting as long, redundant discussions about the minutiae of collecting. So my thanks to Kyrie, who started it all, and everyone else who contributed.