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Kyrie · 05-02-2002, 07:32 PM

Hi unspellable,

As a point of order, and I intend no offense, you were not quoting â??quoting the actual Soviet design committeeâ? - you were sharing with us your memory of â??an English translation of the Soviet design committee's reportâ?. Your memory is correct - but the English translation was incorrect. Please note that the Soviet usage of â??7.62â?, when used in the context of the 7.62x53R, the 7.62x25 Tokarev, and the 7.62 Nagant actually refers to three *different* true bullet diameters! The â??7.62â? in the names of these three cartridges is identifying nomenclature and not an expression of true bullet diameter. The change in nomenclature from â??7.63 Mauserâ? to â??7.62 Tokarev: was just that - a change in nomenclature and nothing more. The 7.63 Mauser and 7.62 Tokarev cartridge both use bullets of .309 diameter. Having measured the bullets myself, I can confirm this is true. There was no change in bullet diameter when the Soviet adopted the 7.63 Mauser as the 7.62 Tokarev.

In terms of the 7.62 Tokarev muzzle velocity, the 505 m/s is from a pressure test barrel. Per Soviet manuals, muzzle velocity from a TT-33 is 420 m/s (1378 fps). This velocity is consistent with the muzzle velocity give in Barnesâ?? â??Cartridges of the Worldâ? and my own experience.

Regarding headspace, please be aware that cartridges do not have headspace - headspace is an attribute if a firearm and not a cartridge. I understand you have examined various kinds of ammunition and have seen differences in neck and shoulder. These differences are manufacturing variation and are not related to headspace. Firearm headspace cannot be determined from the examination of cartridges.

7.62x25 Tokarev is just another name for 7.63 Mauser. Datig has observed this from Soviet sources. Janeâ??s â??Ammunition Handbookâ? observes this also. And I can confirm it from my forty plus years of shooting both 7.63 Mauser and 7.62 Tokarev in C96â??s, TT-33â??s, and a number of other firearms chambered for this cartridge. If anyone has a problem chambering a round of 7.62x25 Tokarev in a C96, or conversely chambering a round of 7.63 Mauser in a TT-33, he has a maximum allowable dimensioned cartridge and a minimum dimensioned chamber.

This is an unusual circumstance, and is not limited to 7.63 Mauser/7.62 Tokarev. I have a Browning P.35 with a minimum dimensioned chamber that will not chamber South African 9x19 Luger ammunition (though I have no problems with this ammunition in any of my other 9x19 firearms). This experience has not lead me to conclude South African 9x19 Luger is a different cartridge from US produced 9x19 Luger ammunition

Best regards,

Kyrie

05-02-2002, 07:32 PM	#7
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: 7.63 Mauser vs 7.62 Tokarov Hi unspellable, As a point of order, and I intend no offense, you were not quoting â??quoting the actual Soviet design committeeâ? - you were sharing with us your memory of â??an English translation of the Soviet design committee's reportâ?. Your memory is correct - but the English translation was incorrect. Please note that the Soviet usage of â??7.62â?, when used in the context of the 7.62x53R, the 7.62x25 Tokarev, and the 7.62 Nagant actually refers to three different true bullet diameters! The â??7.62â? in the names of these three cartridges is identifying nomenclature and not an expression of true bullet diameter. The change in nomenclature from â??7.63 Mauserâ? to â??7.62 Tokarev: was just that - a change in nomenclature and nothing more. The 7.63 Mauser and 7.62 Tokarev cartridge both use bullets of .309 diameter. Having measured the bullets myself, I can confirm this is true. There was no change in bullet diameter when the Soviet adopted the 7.63 Mauser as the 7.62 Tokarev. In terms of the 7.62 Tokarev muzzle velocity, the 505 m/s is from a pressure test barrel. Per Soviet manuals, muzzle velocity from a TT-33 is 420 m/s (1378 fps). This velocity is consistent with the muzzle velocity give in Barnesâ?? â??Cartridges of the Worldâ? and my own experience. Regarding headspace, please be aware that cartridges do not have headspace - headspace is an attribute if a firearm and not a cartridge. I understand you have examined various kinds of ammunition and have seen differences in neck and shoulder. These differences are manufacturing variation and are not related to headspace. Firearm headspace cannot be determined from the examination of cartridges. 7.62x25 Tokarev is just another name for 7.63 Mauser. Datig has observed this from Soviet sources. Janeâ??s â??Ammunition Handbookâ? observes this also. And I can confirm it from my forty plus years of shooting both 7.63 Mauser and 7.62 Tokarev in C96â??s, TT-33â??s, and a number of other firearms chambered for this cartridge. If anyone has a problem chambering a round of 7.62x25 Tokarev in a C96, or conversely chambering a round of 7.63 Mauser in a TT-33, he has a maximum allowable dimensioned cartridge and a minimum dimensioned chamber. This is an unusual circumstance, and is not limited to 7.63 Mauser/7.62 Tokarev. I have a Browning P.35 with a minimum dimensioned chamber that will not chamber South African 9x19 Luger ammunition (though I have no problems with this ammunition in any of my other 9x19 firearms). This experience has not lead me to conclude South African 9x19 Luger is a different cartridge from US produced 9x19 Luger ammunition Best regards, Kyrie