Luger Plastic Grips
 

Since the thread on the question about the "filler" material that Hugh has verified in the black plastic grips is down the page, i wanted to start another about this subject.


In my opinion, the grips are a compression molded pheonolic. This is what we refer to as "Bakelite". The Germans used a little different compound than the US and I feel it is a little more durable to warping from the years since they were made. This material is either in a powder form or a compressed "pill" form when it is placed/dumped into the mold cavity. The mold closes and through time and temperature, the powder is melted, taked the form of the mold and the mold opens. The time is reasonably quick for mold and cure and the parts must have the "flash" removed from the edges when it comes out of the mold. This material is very hard on the Durometer scale which makes it brittle, or break easy. The black plastic grips seem to have an additive to the compound which give a little more "flex" to the pheonolic and makes it an excellent material for grips. One additive could very well be small asbestos fibers. This would allow the grips to be hard, yet have good streangh and not break easy. Don't worry about the asbestos in them, just don't inhale the entire grip, ha, ha.


The plastic grips Mauser used on the P.38 pistols was an injection molded plastic which comes in pellet form, melted, and then hydraulically injected into a mold for forming. This type plastic is not near as hard on the Durometer scale as the pheonolic and will take much more flexing than the the compression molded plastic. The biggest drawback to the injection molded plastic is that the material will scratch and scuff much easier than the pheonolic material.


For grips, I would use the injection molded material. In a combat situation, I don't care if the grips get scratched or scuffed, but with the compression molded pheonolic, I don't want one of them to break. The Luger magazines have a good flat surface which does not allow flexing and the grips do not extend over any edges, so the material works well on them. If you collect the Czech CZ-27 pistol, the grips are a pheonolic material and most will have chips on the bottom front edge because the edge overhangs the frame and one "bump" and the corner is broken because the material is so hard. If they had used injection molded plastic, it would bend before breaking.


Hope this explains a little on the two differnt type materials the Germans used.


Marvin

Great Post, Marvin !!
 

I always thought the Luger grips were called Bakelite. Then some of the past posts on the subject were confusing, at least to me, so I just used "Plastic". This clears it up, Thanks

Re: Luger Plastic Grips
 

Wow - great post!!! OK - here is what I see on my Lugers with Black grips and the other set that Hugh and I have been referencing...


I'm pretty convinced that there were two processes that were manufacturer dependent. On my Kriegs (I have several with Black Grips) all appear to be a solid BLACK - even in the high wear spots... However, on the BlackWidow's I have - there seems to be a "greyish" tint on one LEFT grip panel - about where the 3rd finger rests. When I first got this Luger and displayed it in my case - I thought it was a white wax that was stuck between the checkering. Nope - it's part grip itself (I'll try to get a picture of this and post it later today/tonight - and let all take a look...).


As for the ones that I sent Hugh - those are exactly as he describes. When he was pointing up the checkering - a greyish/whiteish filler began to appear???? My guess is they are Mauser produced grips (given the location of the holes are in the reverse side of the grips..).


Anyway - I think Marvin is spot on in the process used - but I believe that there is a difference between manufacturers and what they used in the process. Further - my "hunch" is that there may even be a difference in the "formula" used in those processes from one batch to the next. It would make sense that as petrolieum based products became scarcer - that filler was probably an option. Asbestos makes the most sense given the heat that these grips were exposed to during the manufacturing process...


Just my rambles - and would invite others to share their thoughts.....

Re: Luger Plastic Grips
 

Some of these resins used crushed, ground or chopped

materials as fillers and charactistic modifiers, ie:

weight, stiffness, and such.

Materials were such as wheat hulls, nut shells, a wide

variety of fibers and such (almost anything)

At NASA we encountered chopped fiberglass, walnut,and

grain stems and hulls. for fillers in our own spacecraft

sub assy's .

ViggoG

Re: Luger Plastic Grips
 

Germany started using plastic material (Bakelit etc) for pistol grips during the 1930�´s. Krieghoff started using plastic grips made by H. R�¶mmler-AG in 1935 (fine checkering, stamped â??HRSâ?� on inside surface). The quality of Krieghoff grips changed during 1937 (courser checkering, no â??HRSâ?� stamp). The change to black grips was in 1940 (brown grips used oil based colouring which was a scarce commodity during the war. Black grips were coal-tar coloured).


Bakelite (patented name: Bakelit) was invented by the Belgian/Am. inventor Baekeland.


Mauser used wooden grips for Police Lugers up until 1942. Plastic Mauser grips were introduced in 1940 and were ALWAYS black. By 1942 approx. 2/3rds of Mauser grips were black plastic.


Gernuine Krieghoff & Mauser plastic grips have ALL got a smooth 5mm wide margin which has no checkering.

Excellent Post Patrick!!!
 

Do you know if either manufacturer changed the formula during the production of the black grips specifically? I'm still trying to understand that filler that was used - and think perhaps ViggoG's reply is accurate. I'm still wondering exactly what "filler" was used by what manufacturer and when..???


Of course - the easy (and expensive!) solution would be to get grip panels sent to chemical analysis labs - but I'd rather take a less expensive and destructive approach to this research and combine what we all think we know about all this!!!

Patrick !!!
 

Do you know if they used the same material for the magazine bottoms in the late 1941 and 1942 fxo's?

Re: Bakelite
 

I am of the Bekelite generation and grew up with Bakelite as the only plastic material. Friends of mine still collect Art Deco Bakelite objects such as radios, ash trays, lamps etc. Bakelite was heat moulded. The heated mould melted the surface of the material, making it shiny and giving it a more intense colour. Thicker material was sometimes not heated all the way through. Over the years, formaldehyde evaporates, leaving the material more brittle. When it breaks, the inside material looks chalky and has a lighter colour. If and when the shiny (when new) black surface of the grips wears of, the inside looks much lighter - almost like filler. Patrick

Re: Bakelite
 

Hi Patrick, the element that makes Bakelite shine is mercury! (Yep! That's one way to tell original Mauser black plastic grips, shinny borders!)That is one of the reasons no one wants to mess with it, as the E.P.A. has strict guidelines on the use and disposal of this type of material!! Also the presses and moulding machines for this type of material are obsolete, and it is hard to find a facility that has the capibility to process Bakelite......To bad though! As it is a neat plastic! till...later...G.T.

Re: Bakelite
 

Thanks G.T.! I always preferred wooden grips anyway. Patrick

Re: Bakelite/PPK Grips/OT
 

Were the mottle brown, kind of swirly marble looking PPK grips made of any specific plastic! They seem to warp bad at the top, especailly on the right side and crack at the rear and around the grip screws. I have noticed cracks in the darker color more, they seem to be softer or weaker in those areas. I really really like the look of those grips, pity they were not better made. This really surprised me coming from the GERMANS, looks like a design flaw! Wish someone would make a grip that looks like these but stronger for shooter PPKs. ~Thor~

Re: Bakelite/PPK Grips/OT
 

Ted, I have noticed the same thing. The lighter 'tan' marbled grips seem to be more durable. I, too, would like to find a reasonable 'repro' grip that looks good. I have seen some really bad repros that are simply a cast resin.

Re: Bakelite/PPK Grips/OT
 

Ted,


I could be wrong on this, but I think the PPK grips are a thermoset plastic (injection molded) and did not contain any filler material. The plastic "mottling" is from the use of re-ground material being added to the virgin material. Thermoset plastic can be reground and mixed with the new material, but will give the "mottled" look that we see. Sometimes a manufacturer will add this re-grind to purposly get that finish. I don't know if Walther did this on purpose or not but they are really nice to look at. As to the top of the grips warping; this is mostly caused by the very thin section at the top of the grips. The material if 60-70 years old now and the plastic of those days was in it's infancy and therefore will tend to change a little over the years from handling, heat, cold, etc. If the cross section on the top of the grips were a little thicker, the problem would not exist.


Marvin

Re: Bakelite/PPK Grips/OT
 

You hit it on the nose Marvin. I had forgotten that sprues,

flash, rejects and all other scraps could be re-used in this

manner. Thats just good economy and looks good too.

ViggoG