Troubleshooting the Jam... Help!
 

Total newbie to Lugers and to the Forum here.

I just bought a Luger. It is a shooter, having been nickelled many years ago from the looks of it. This is especially unfortunate since it appears superb under the nickel {no pitting, damage, etc}.

The pistol jams. Various positions in the mag, cartridges hang up on the way into the chamber. I'm guessing excessive OAL may be a source of the problem, here. Ammo is 124 grain Federal FMJ.

Any suggestions?

And by the way, any opinions about refinishing it?

Danke sehr!

Heinmot:

You should probably invest in a new Meg-Gar magazine, as this may serve to eliminate one variable.

Excessive OAL, no, probably just the opposite is true. Original Luger ball ammo was loaded at 29.6mm (per my actual examination). Very few modern manufactures load to the proper length for a Luger.

AOL is critical for a Luger, as the cartridges ride up the magazine at a very sharp angle.

Sieger

Mmmm...

I forgot to mention that the magazine was a new Mec-Gar.

The reason I suggested excessive OAL was due to Ken Waters old writeup in Pet Loads where he makes the observation that the problem with feeding in his Luger was excessive length.

Would a truncated cone shaped bullet help? This was the original shape of WW1 German military ammo, wasn't it?

I'll check your OAL {1.165"} for fit in the mag. I assume you are using Mec-Gars, too?

Any opinion about the finish?

I have found that sometimes certain ammo will work in one luger and not another?

Have you tried several different loads?

Ed

Heinmot. I agree with Sieger on the OAL, and I use the late war FXO magazines in my Lugers with new Wolff springs, if the original mags jam. Works for me in ALL Lugers. GT, on this forum makes these new springs but I haven"t used them yet. He is of the highest character, so I assume his springs are even better than Wolff"s.
Lonnie

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Lonnie Zimmerman:
<strong>Heinmot. with new Wolff springs, if the original mags jam. Lonnie</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Is this a mainspring, or a replacement magazine spring?

Replacement magazine spring. I just put one in a Mec-Gar magazine. The difference in power between the two springs is extremely noticeable. You definitely will need a loading tool for that G.T. spring. My Luger didn't shoot very well with a stock Mec-Gar magazine. Noticed the hold open failed to work reliably. I can hardly wait to try out the new spring, but from all indications it is a definite improvement...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Rick W.:
<strong>Hello Heinmot,

So the rework of a plated pistol back to factory specs is possible, just takes time, worksmanship, and patience.

Regards,

Rick W.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Thanks a bunch.

Can you provide any names of outfits that may be able to do this type of work? {chemical stripping, rebluing, etc?}

If it is still just a shoter, is there any improvement to value when a gun is given a professional and excellent refinish?

Also, where do I get replacement mag springs, and how much do they cost?

Heinmot, I do stock GTs new coil mag springs @$5 each + #1 S&H. TH

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Heinmot:
<strong>Mmmm...

I forgot to mention that the magazine was a new Mec-Gar.

The reason I suggested excessive OAL was due to Ken Waters old writeup in Pet Loads where he makes the observation that the problem with feeding in his Luger was excessive length.

Would a truncated cone shaped bullet help? This was the original shape of WW1 German military ammo, wasn't it?

I'll check your OAL {1.165"} for fit in the mag. I assume you are using Mec-Gars, too?

Any opinion about the finish?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Heinmot:

Ken Waters is an excellent writer and I agree with his observations 99% of the time. Here, however, he made an error.

Too long is not the problem, too short is the problem. His whole line of reasoning is flawed because he failed to take into account the way the cartridges slide up the front and rear of the magazine at an angle. The interior of the magazine is only 27mm long, so, naturally, with this design, the OAL of the cartridges must exceed this length, so as not to angle down and bind in the magazine:

Here are the correct OAL as loaded by DWM:

Truncated cone 29.2mm
Round Nose 28.6mm

Yes, a TC bullet will work a little better than a round nose because the pistol was originally designed for them (interior of mag, feed ramp, chamber, etc).

Ken did have a great deal of luck with the accuracy of his 1916 DWM as I recall. Pitty they no longer make the HS-5 he used in his accuracy load.

Sieger

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Rick W.:
<strong>

So the rework of a plated pistol back to factory specs is possible, just takes time, worksmanship, and patience.

Regards,

Rick W.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">...you forgot MONEY Rick... lots of money! :D

Heinmot, I can provide all the services required to get your gun back to factory condition. Here is a plated G date Luger I recently restored. This ratty looking G date was on another Luger's pitted frame. Top cannon needed lapping to fit to frame,taking off Chrome (not nickle), rust bluing, strawing, fire bluing. Here are the BEFORE and After pictures.
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/CCGDateB1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/CCGDateB1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/CCGDateB2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/CCGDateB2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/CCGDateB3.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/CCGDateB3.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/CCGDateA1.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/CCGDateA1.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
<a href="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/CCGDateA2.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/CCGDateA2.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>
http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/TLSS_banner.jpg

Heinmot, please see your Private Messages (PM). You must go to the "my profile" button at the top of you screen to read your messages.

OK, and update.

Jamming continues using the Mec-Gar Mags.

I have ordered replacement springs from Wilson but they haven't arrived yet.

The jams occur most frequently {but not exclusively} with the last 3 or 4 rounds in the mag. I HAVE tried lubing the mags with Tri-Flow.

Also, when hand feeding, the gun feeds smooth as can be. Trouble starts when the trigger is pulled. Appears that the cartridges aren't rising fast enough up to meet the returning bolt face and are struck just in front of the rim, causing the shell to either jam tighly at an angle of entry to the chamber, OR quite commonly, get caught with the bullet sticking straight up out of the action with the bolt face resting broadside against it.

I HOPE the new mag springs work. It does appear that a slightly shorter bullet might not cause as much friction inside the mag. Longer bullets would just cause more friction, I believe, and compound the feeding problem.

Any more ideas, suggestions or theories?

All are welcome!!

Anybody else have this problem??

Hi,

Sounds more like the loads lack enough power to correctly recycle the gun.

Similar jams occur when I feed 124gr ammo like GeCo in my Lugers. I use 115gr S&B, which is quite a spicy load and works the best for me. Since S&B is easier to obtain in Europe than Winchester, I tend to use S&B. In the USA, most forum member had excellent results with 115gr. Wallmart Winchester.

The combination of OAL, power, magazine and mainspring is critical on Lugers. Mess up one component and you're in trouble :)

I find that one magazine will function perfectly in one luger and will refuse to feed in another, so it's usually working through a combination of magazines and 9mm brands to find the right combo.

The MecGar for example, worked like a dream in a 1937 S/42, but refused to work in my 1913 Dutch. While the pre-1934 blued magazines work best in most of my Lugers, none of them like postwar DDR Haenel magazines.

You can also look for signs of wear on the bottom of the receiver and the tip of the hold-open. If there are visible scuffmarks on the holdopen and the bottom of the receiver, remove the holdopen latch and try to shoot without it to see if it feeds better. Also check the feeding ramp for possible snag points (as well as the top of the magazine).

MecGar are good mags but I do believe they have too weak a spring. I think you are right on about the time to get the round in position. Remember a Luger can do a complete cycle in less than 1/60 of one second and the time for the round to rise and get in position is probably 1/10 of this total time (the breech block has to be complete back before the round can begin its climb into positiion) most feeding jams occur when too weak a mag spring is used. Also, the Luger pistol came with a loading tool. The designers made that tool because they designed a very strong magazine spring. Wolff springs also sells replacement, but I plan to start using GTs springs when I need some more.

Baie Dankie van Vlimmeren 'n Thor!

I will try the new springs and check the innards, too.

Unfortunately, I have been using S&B and the Win ammo as well as the Federal. All operate {or fail to} in exactly the same way.

All ideas welcome!

We'll whip this rascal yet!

By the way, got a hit on my 18" gong at 330 yards in 5 rounds of USA Win 115 FMJ from sitting with back up against the Polaris Ranger wheel, yesterday.

Held about 4 feet over.

I like this Lugie, stumbling or not!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Heinmot:
<strong>OK, and update.

Jamming continues using the Mec-Gar Mags.

I have ordered replacement springs from Wilson but they haven't arrived yet.

The jams occur most frequently {but not exclusively} with the last 3 or 4 rounds in the mag. I HAVE tried lubing the mags with Tri-Flow.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi Again:

Jamming on the last 3 or 4 could definately be an AOL problem. If this continues after you have replaced your mag spring, try the OALs I have suggested above. Again, too long is not the problem here.

Sieger

The spring also has to overcome inertia. When you fire the gun, it rises due to recoil sharply, driving the column of ammo down. The weaker the magazine spring, the easier for the ammo column to go down. Another area of concern in the Luger magazine, is friction. It is estimated that nearly 60% of the spring power in the Luger magazine has to overcome friction, as a result of the angled feed. One cure for that, would be teflon coating. I have a 70's Mauser magazine teflon coated and it works great. My next magazine will be coated by Robar with NP3, a nickel-teflon coating, with a spring from GT. That should be about as good as I can get...

I don't mean to over simplifly. Have you tried squeezing the edges of the mag together? Most of my problems have been cured by the proper spring and the contouring of the magizine. Use the Walmart ammo and play with the mag. I bet you will have a fun pistol with a good feel in an hour. Smoothe needlenose and some patience. I have done this 20-30 times. If you have cut or messed with the spring you might have a problem.