Gestapo = SS = Probably fake?
 

I am finally going to purchase my first Luger. Unless I fumble across something that changes my mind I intend to purchase from Ralph Shattuck. Every indication is that he is very reputable.

As I reviewed his list I found several item described as â??Nazi era Gestapoâ?� or â??Gestapo chamberedâ?�. I canâ??t find these in Jan Stillâ??s Third Reich Lugers.

Were the Gestapo and the SS one in the same? If so, does that mean that such a piece would have the SS runes stamped on it? I remember reading on this forum that Lugers with these runes currently outnumber those actually made due to people stamping them into the guns in an effort to increase the value.

A big part of the appeal of Lugers (to me) is the historical aspect. Iâ??d rather not buy anything that might have been â??monkeyed withâ?�. So, does anyone know if that's what he means?

Thanks for any input.

Michael

Hi Michael!! Gestapo and SS Units are totally different in terms of function.

When it comes to Lugers there are really no "Gestapo" Lugers. That's just a name given to a specific group of Lugers by some US dealer(s).

Lugers made in 1941 and 1942, and with the designation on the toggle of "byf" can have either black Bakelite or wood grips. Some call the Lugers with the black Bakelite grips, "Black Widows". The wood gripped Lugers in that same era are then called "Gestapo".

If you buy a "Gestapo" Luger from Ralph, it will be a byf 41 or byf 42 and will have wood grips!! And that's all it means!!

Good Luck and Good Hunting!!

Michael,

With due apologies to Frank, I will go him one further, and state that "Gestapo" Luger is totally, completely, incontrovertibly meaningless. The last thing this hobby needs is another artificial and misleading pistol category.

--Dwight

Bummer Dwight, I kinda liked finding out that my two byf 42's with wood grips were official Gestapo Lugers!! Sounds much more impressive. <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />

--deleted by poster--

If you are concerned that a weapon "may have been used" too "execute innocent people" then you need too rule out all military weapons from you collection, and a few sporting weapons. Too paraphrase an old saying (my words not yours) "only the loosing side committed atrocities", then Stalin was correct too tell his troops entering Berlin that "only the unborn are innocent"?. Military weapons are made for one purpose, while I enjoy my collection, P08s,p38s, K98ks, M1, M1a, M1 carb. they where all made too kill and on one can certify that only pure military targets were shot at, no civilians where either by mistake or other wise injured with any weapon I or anyone else owns (mil surplus). These are weapons of history, and it is pure history that drives most collectors, not the want too hold a gun that was maybe was used against the innocent. If you have a problem with the GESTAPO, great, but too brow beat someone who wants too collect history, well at the least shouldn't you also rule out every Germany WW2 weapon just too be sure you got them all?.

Policeluger, I have to agree. It is unfortunate to hear Tac's story and I empathise with that part of it but I cannot agree with the discussion here. We are all collectors of historical artifacts and students of the period. To condem a weapon based on it's possible or probable use is to use the arguments of the Democratic liberals. The weapons themselves offer nothing, good or ill. It is the weapon holder who stands responsible. Condem the man, the act, not the pistol. Jerry Burney

Hi,

It just shows that when dealing with parts of history that are still alive for some, it pays off te be tactful. Surviving war victims will appreciate that.

I agree with tacfoley that using the 'Gestapo' name as a brandname for lugers that have no documented links to this organisation is both taste- and useless.

Michael, I hope you realize that you stirred up a hornets nest! But you get the idea regarding the term "Gestapo". Just think of it as a byf 41 or byf 42 with wooden grips and you'll be just fine in your interpretation.

Again Good Luck and Good Hunting!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Gentlemen and Ladies if any are present, please confine the discussion to LUGERS as is stated in our Terms & Conditions and Forum Decorum or I will have to terminate this thread with a lock... or worse yet, nuke it entirely.

Thank you from the forum admin staff...

I was watching this thread also John, and figured it could get out of hand from the wide range of feelings these kind of discussions generate.

I understand both sides, but this is probably best left to a Chicago bar room discussion rather than here, as it will just get more heated.

Ed

John and Eduard, as long as you leave my original post, I have no objection!!

Michael,
your question was a legitimate question. Some of the responses were a learning experience. Stay with the forum and don't think for a moment that you did something wrong. I have been collecting lugers since 1989 and I am still learning. Ed Tinker and John Sabato are correct in watching what happened after you posted your question. This forum is for fun, learning and studying history and you played no roll in the beginning of what started to become a rather heated discussion.
Big Norm

No Tac I would not want too own such a weapon , IF it was documented too such a horrible act. However, perhaps due in part too the American cowboy in me, I would love too own a documented western revolver from the late 1800's that was once owned by any of the black hat wearing bad guys. Likewise I would love too own any western era gun, on any side of the law, as it would be treasured as a piece of history. Having been born just after WW2, I do not have the tender underlying feeling of those much closer too the war. I do not want too hurt anyones feeling. But like it has been said today already, it was the person and not the weapon who was responsible. To Ed, John, and anyone who may feel upset by my words above, it was not my intent, and I am sorry if you are upset. I have never seen a gun with a mind and a soul....in fact I've met a few folks that way too....it is men, and how they choose too treat another, with horrid acts, that bothers me. OK!! on the brighter Luger side I have a small wood box sub-caliber unit coming in, in a few days, when I return from vacation, I'll post a picture or two and put it up for sale, it sounds like a pre-war one. I am buying it sight unseen, so not sure of the era, but the guy I'm getting it from I trust. John we pray for you daughter and hope all is well.

I am sorry if I posed a question that seems inflammatory. I merely did not understand the term as used on Mr.Shattuck's website. Thanks for the clarification on what the designation might mean. My interest is only related to this historical firearm.

Thanks guys, I'll let you know what I purchase.

Regards

Michael

Michael I work not far from you in Herndon... perhaps we can have lunch one day soon...

Send me a private message anytime.

Why would a respected Luger dealer like Mr. Shattuck use a misleading, incorrect, and potential inflamatory term like "Gestapo" Luger at all?

That boggles my mind. Wouldn't you think that Mr. Shattuck would be the LAST person to use such a term?

I don't know the man and don't mean to impugn his integrity, but his use of the term "Gestapo" Luger throws into doubt (for me at least) anything else he might claim or say about items he is trying to sell.

Comments?

Why don't you e-mail Ralph Shattuck and ask him?

I can only guess as to why he felt it was a "Gestapo" weapon, and I think that </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">use a misleading, incorrect, and potential inflamatory term like "Gestapo"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">is in the eye of the beholder, as I was tempted to delete a posting on another thread where YOU stated that Hitler was not a war-monger, as I feel just the opposite...

But then this is a forum to discuss interesting items, but specifically Lugers.

Ed

I think it suffices to say that some dealers are noted for inventing colorful names for quite ordinary guns so as to be able to get more money for them. "Black Widow" and other names serve only to extract a few more bucks from the unwary.

Whether actual documentation of use by a specific German organization would add or detract from the value is beside the point. That documentation rarely exists, and the name alone means nothing and adds no value.

In addition, various markings associated with certain organizations have almost all proven fraudulent, added in this country for the same reason, to increase the price.

The same goes for prominent names engraved or otherwise added to pistols. There are known presentation pistols and they generally bring a premium. But prices drop to near zero on garbage like a Walther PP I saw with "Herman Georing" electric pencilled on the slide.

Another jewel is a PP engraved with the name "Adolf Hitler", made by Manurhin; the sucker who bought it won't admit he was taken and is still trying to tell people that Manurhin made Walther pistols during WWII.

Jim