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Spandau toggle link
Spandau toggle link on EBAY #2159864945. Any comments?
Regards Ken D |
Most of the info I have read disputes that Spandaus are real.
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ED, Ken, I believe my Luger mentor, Howard J Nickle when he said he owned one said Spandau Luger in 1946. He is 84 years old and told me this twenty years ago. Why would they show up if not that there were a few made? 1946 is an odd time to start boosting Lugers. Jerry Burney
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I have heard this a couple of times, and Jerry, I really don't know.
I would take the word from you stating that your friend and mentor believed they were real than just conjecture. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> |
All:
I believe Shattuck advertised one a while back. I handled one at a Natl Gun Day Show, a year ago, whether it was authenic or not, I have no ideal I believe the price was $12.000. The seller of the toggle mentions the blue appears to have been removed from the Spandau marking??. With the price of the Luger; the $50.00 toggle may be as close to a Spandau as I will get. Regards Ken D |
Several years back (about 1996 I think) NAPCA had a show in Odessa Texas. The emphasis was on Lugers. On one table they had six Spandaus lined up in a row. I think that at the time that was all the known Spandaus but one.
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Ron:
Were all the Spandaus owned by the same person or were they just displayed togather. Thanks Ken D |
They were owned by six different people. The show director had coordinated with NAPCA members to bring all the guns to one place for the display. The only two people whom I knew for sure each owned one of the Spandaus were Ralph Shattuck and Mike Morris.
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Did you look them over Ron?
Were they consistent, look the same etc? (like I said, nothing to go on except the conflicting parts in several books) |
Didn't pick any of them up and handle them, but looked closely at them as they were displayed on a stand and you could see both sides and the top. I was not then, and still am not, a Spandau expert but they all looked pretty much the same to me, varying only in condition. I do seem to recall that they all had the Crown/K proof at the rear of the forward link right beside the two digit serial number. The link posted on ebay does not have this characteristic. My memory may be in error but I would not lay out big bucks for the link being auctioned.
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This graphic below shows the alleged Spandau toggle link in comparison with both Erfurt toggles and illustrations of two types of Spandau toggle link examples from Gerard Henrotin's e-book "The Luger Producers"...(highly recommended by me for Luger reading)
Notice that the link in question has a serial number stamp that more closely resembles the serial number placement used on an Erfurt Toggle, and that there are other Spandau example marks that are no where to be seen. There also appears to be present what looks to me like a crown/N in a place where there would not normally be on one of the Spandau links (that were used for the illustrations in Henrotin's e-book. FWIW, IMNSHO, I believe that this was an Erfurt toggle link that has been welded, ground and engraved with the letters for Spandau. This would account for the stamp being white instead of the same color and consistency of the crown and serial number digits. There are also inconsistent polishing marks present(as shown in the photo of the link on auction). Vertical marks over the crown/N and horizontal marks over the SPANDAU... A little amateurish looking to me... not something I would expect to come out of a German government arsenal. http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/...ndautoggle.jpg anyway...that is my $0.02 |
All:
Thanks for the comments, I agree the absence of the crown/k and other aberrations make it suspect. Regards Ken D |
Mr. Robert B. Marvin put out a small pamphlet/booklet in 1972 titled "The Identification and Analysis of Luger Proof Marks".
I believe. Mr. Marvin is still alive and may live in Florida. On page 69 he writes : "..This Luger DOES exist. It is authentic, though it IS also mis-understood. We believe that the Spandau was produced for use at the Spandau prison, and made up, mostly, from parts secured from other sources. There are other theories on this too, however...". On pages 34 and 36 he does show photos of Spandau toggles with and without the crown/k stamping...and goes on to state that all the Spandau lugers shown in his booklet appeared to have their stampings stamped and not engraved. I am not sure how Mr. Marvin's theory held up to date... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" /> |
Mr Marvin is unfortunately deceased. I bought my copy from his children who told me.
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If it matters guys, I emailed the seller of this suspect toggle and asked about the Spandau lettering and I was told that it was engraved on and not rolled stamped or pressed stamped in. Hope that helps. And that specific area of the toggle was missing its bluing.
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John Walter in the Luger book page 249:
"SPANDAU. On the toggle-links of P.08, beneath a crown;applied to the few guns assembled(?) in the Spandau factory in 1918. The design differs disecernibly frp, the Erfurt pattern(q.v.)". Any comments ? |
It would be interesting to see this link from the side or just a side view slightly higher than the top to check for flatness of the top of the link.
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Spandau #27
I own the spandau that was owned by Ralph Schattuck.
I am thinking of selling it but for this thread, I will post some pictures of an authentic Spandau for everyone's perusal. I have it posted for sale on the sales forum and will also post pictures there. I will try to take some pix tomorrow if I have time. I am NOT trying very hard to sell it. Fred Pack |
Welcome to the Lugerforum Fred... We look forward to the chance to examine some good photographs of your Spandau Luger...
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Pictures of Spandau #27 are posted on the sales portion of this forum.
Best regards, Fred |
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