Curious about how the law considers
 

a luger with a short barrel, lets say 4", 6" or what ever artillery style lugers would have. Once the stock is added to a luger is it considered a short barrel rifle or something of that nature that would require a special license to shoot it.

I was at a gun range today and was asked that exact question by someone that was at the range whom I did not know. I bought an aftermarket shoulder stock (artillery style) and put on my 1916 - 4" barrel luger. I shoot it at that range all the time, but I never have shot it before with the shoulder stock on it. I was just curious just how much different it shot with and without the stock.

I really didn't know how to answer that question properly, so I just took it off and shot it regular until I did a little research about that subject. I didn't think I was doing anything to get in trouble, but I didn't know.

Also with carbine style lugers with short barrel lengths or any other style luger out there that would run into a situation of this matter?

thanks
Glenn barnes

Yes, you made an illegal short barreled rifle.

It is why batf specifies that an artillery can have a artillery stock and a navy can have a navy stock, but not vice versa. A 1900 can have an ideal stock or a bernake stock. Does it make sense, absolutely not.

My Dad and I were having a similar discussion about this topic today. The BATFE exempts certain C&R pistols from being considered an short barreled rifle when their original military or commerial configuration provided for a shoulder stock and it is the correct style stock for that configuration as Ed has pointed out above.

SO I COULD HAVE GOT IN REAL TROUBLE DOING WHAT I DID TODAY IF THE WRONG PERSON SAW THAT CONFIGURATION KNOWING THAT IT WAS A MISMATCHED LUGER AND STOCK TO MAKE IT SHOOT THAT WAY?

bY THE WAY, IT SHOT A HELL OF ALOT BETTER AT A DISTANCE. I WAS SHOOTING AT MY 150 YD TARGET WHICH I WAS SHOOTING MY OTHER RIFLES I HAD TODAY WITH ME AND IT WAS PRETTY DAMN CLOSE TO THE SMALL TARGETS I HAD. THERE JUST WASNT ANY CONSISTANCY WITH THE PATTERN AT THAT DISTANCE.

BUT, THATLL BE THE LAST TIME I DO THAT. I DO THANK YALL FOR THAT NEEDED INFORMATION, BUT I GOT IN REAL TROUBLE.

WHAT KIND OF TROUBLE COULD THEY HAVE DONE TO ME HAVING IT THAT WAY.

Luger stock use
 

Wouldn't it be great if BATF had ruled that if a Luger has a stock lug then a stock can be legally added regardless of barrel length? No wait, that would make sense-never mind! :o

I kinda figured that lugers being in the curios & relics category and had the stock lug, no harm no foul. I guess i was wrong. I am damn sure glad i asked the question here, before the wrong person asked me the wrong questions.

I do thank all yall for directing me in the right direction.

Many people on the forums get weirded out by stocks on wrong guns, besides cut down shotguns, I have never heard of someone being charged, that said its in black n white in the batf C&R regulations.

In the 19060's there was a rash of fears that stock lugs were verbotten completely and you find lugs ground out. The word was that just owning a stock and gun was a $10,000 fine. Of course later rulings said that was not true.

Someone should do a write up and state that any four inch used for police could have a stock attached...

Ed,
Not sure what that means. Are you suggesting that someone petition the BATFE to add a stocked Police Luger to the exempt category along with LP08s, Navys, Carbines, etc.?

Unless I am out of date, I am not aware of any current regulation that permits a four inch used for police to have a stock attached.

Ron, before the artillery and navy were petitioned, it was considered illegal wasn't it?

So yes, police used stocked four inch, so why couldn't you petition for their use! There are so many exceptions, it's pretty hard to keep track.

Items and guns get petitioned periodically, even when not fifty yrs old, like the cz82

Glenn,

Creating a SBR without the appropriate registration or license is a violation of the National Firearms Act (the same one that controls fully automatic machine guns).

So here is what you're dealing with:

This law, from 1934, is separate (Title II) from the Gun Control Act (Title 1) that addresses more common firearms.

When you attach a stock to a 4 inch Luger, you become a manufacturer of a SBR. Here is a summary of the regulations:

Criminal conduct

The Act makes certain conduct a criminal offense, in relation to engaging in business as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer with respect to (NFA)firearms without having registered or paid a Special Occupational Tax (SOT); receiving or possessing a firearm transferred to oneself in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm made in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm not registered to oneself in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; transferring or making a firearm in violation of the NFA; or obliterating, removing, changing, or altering the serial number of the firearm.[18]
Criminal penalties

Violations of the Act are punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison and forfeiture of all devices or firearms in violation, and the individual's right to own or possess firearms in the future. The Act provides for a penalty of $10,000 for certain violations.[19] A willful attempt to evade or defeat a tax imposed by the Act is a felony punishable by up to five years in prison and a $100,000 fine ($500,000 in the case of a corporation or trust), under the general tax evasion statute.[20] For an individual, the felony fine of $100,000 for tax evasion could be increased to $250,000.[21]

EXCEPT for the exceptions that are spelled out in the BATF regulations.
NOTE; DID NOT COPY EVERYTHING, BUT YOU CAN SEE THAT MANY 4 OR 5 INCH BARREL GUNS ARE ALREADY EXEMPT / I.E. THE HI-POWERS, CHINESE BROOMHANDLES WITH STOCKS, ETC.

NOTE; DID NOT COPY EVERYTHING, BUT YOU CAN SEE THAT MANY 4 OR 5 INCH BARREL GUNS ARE ALREADY EXEMPT / I.E. THE HI-POWERS, CHINESE BROOMHANDLES WITH STOCKS, ETC.

WOW! So if I was out there shooting an artillery or navy with a stock that wasn't serial numbered to that gun I would be ok, but not a 6" barreled luger that is not specifically classified as a navy or artillery, but comes from the factory already made (no re-manufacturing or altering of the gun) to have a stock attached to the grip.

Man! that would be an interesting court room case.

Quote:

Criminal conduct The Act makes certain conduct a criminal offense, in relation to engaging in business as a manufacturer, importer, or dealer with respect to (NFA)firearms without having registered or paid a Special Occupational Tax (SOT); receiving or possessing a firearm transferred to oneself in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm made in violation of the NFA; receiving or possessing a firearm not registered to oneself in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record; transferring or making a firearm in violation of the NFA; or obliterating, removing, changing, or altering the serial number of the firearm.[18]

Now on this statement, cause I am in the mix of getting a navy luger. Does it need to be registered as a class III weapon although it is not fully auto. But once its got its stock added it considered a SBR. Or does the exemption that Ed refers to make it legal as is.

I never would have thought that this issue would have came up and me being charged as a felon just by putting on a stock that some of the lugers were already equipped to have.

Just this exact reason is another fine example of why its a great thing to be a member of a forum with so many knowledgeable folks.

Another question. At what point would it be legal to have a luger with a stock that isn't in the exempt category. I know I can buy 16" barrel AR-15's, so does that barrel length also apply to a luger to make it legal with a stock.

Hell! throw a snail drum on a 4" luger with a butt stock and I guess they would throw you under the jail cell.

how do the simpson folks sell this one then to the public?
http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=6854

I would imagine the second one would fit this, as it says, with or without the forearm;



Personally, I think that you could quote any of the above and make an average person leave you alone at the range. If, and that is a big if, someone tried to charge you, this is confusing enough to a collector.

Besides being careful, I have never heard of a collector being charged for this. Not they could not push it, but where do you draw the line.

yes, a 16 inch barrel makes this all a moot point. I haven't reloaded in years, really should, but the two 16 inch lugers I have owned, I could not get to cycle correctly.

In 1966 I got "caught" with a mint C96 rig I got from a neighbor who brought it back.
It was certainly illegal at the time as a set.

Since they "had to do something" I was allowed to "abandon" it to the Govt.

I was on my way to the army and had no record.
They got a '28 Thompson as well.

Later this all came up in my security clearance investigation.

The C&R exemption list specifically states that the combinations listed are NOT NFA SBRs, but come under the GCA. That is what makes it OK to have historically correct combinations of Lugers and appropriate stocks (original or reproduction).

When you have the correct combination, it is not a NFA firearm and doesn't require the registration, tax and transfer that a NFA firearm would...

This means you can have a Navy stock with a Navy Luger; an Artillery stock with an artillery Luger, and many other listed combinations.

A Navy stock with an Artillery Luger would be a NFA firearm.

NFA firearms include full auto and other "sensitive" type firearms. Not just machine guns get covered under those rules.

In the 1960's and 1970's, the ATF looked at the possession of a Luger with a stock lug and a stock of any description, without a $200 registration tax stamp, as "constructive intent" to manufacture a SBR... I passed on buying the shoulder stock (for only $25.00) to accompany my 1914 Erfurt Artillery Luger in order not to stray even close to wrong side of the law...

Not much. You would get a government paid vacation of a few years, confiscation of all of your firearms, and prohibited from owning any in the future.