Nazi and Imperial proofs
 

Hello

I am new to Lugers and the forum. I picked up a 1918 DWM a couple of years ago that I think is proofed both Imperial and Nazi. I have been unable to find another like this. Does anyone have any background on what I have, or am I misinterpreting the proofs?

The gun is numbers matching except for the magazine which I have not found a number on.

http://beemerphile.smugmug.com/All/a...ger%2004-M.jpg

http://beemerphile.smugmug.com/All/a...ger%2002-M.jpg

http://beemerphile.smugmug.com/All/a...ger%2003-M.jpg

yes, two possibilities, which I have seen both of

1. refurbed completely during the Nazi era / the barrel makes it more possible

2. fake stampings

What are those markings on the *top* of that barrel??? An "S/42" on the barrel???

DWM toggle but an artillery notch on a 1918 frame...And no 1920 stamp...

why would there be a 1920 stamp?

Lots of WW1 guns never received the property stamping

Looks like an Erfurt receiver.
In addition I don't like the Nazi Eagle on the receiver as it looks too big.
What's the serial number on the left side of the chamer? Picture is not big enough but it seems to have a suffix or a 5th digit.

The serial number is 7598. I will have to make a trip to my shop to get the top markings from the barrel and a close-up of what appears after the serial on the left side. My shop is a ways up the hill from the house and I am recovering from surgery, but I will try to huff it up there today. What makes it look like an Erfurt receiver and what about the barrel makes it look like a Nazi refurb? I have much to learn. Your expertise is appreciated. Thanks. - Lee

Here is a right side view if it helps...

http://beemerphile.smugmug.com/All/a...ger%2001-L.jpg

Welcome to the forum!

It may be an Erfurt receiver because of the acceptance stamps, which are not complete. Two alignment crowns are there but inspectors never completed the process by adding their stamps below these two crowns. The barrel may be a nazi replacement becuase of the later "stick eagle" proof and the "S/42", which usually designates a replacement part.

It is not a police pistol and the large eagle is a puzzle. It is clearly stamped and not engraved, so fakery would be very expensive.

My thought was that if it stayed in gov't service after WW I it should have been stamped with the '1920' marking...No?

The Erfurt receiver with the two empty crowns indicates an armory replacement spare part. S/42 stamped on a part other than the toggle is the mark of a Mauser-made replacement part. It is not usually seen in this postion on replacement part barrels.

The receiver eagle is highly suspect. Stempeln (the dies for stamping metal) are easy and cheap to have made, which is why fakery in firearms collecting can be so attractive.

It will be very interesting to see the closeup pictures.

--Dwight

Some additional pics. The artifact after the serial number on the left side is the same artifact that is stamped below the serial number on the receiver and above the serial number on the barrel. The barrel does indeed have a S42 stamp followed by an eagle. The S42 is lightly struck and did not photograph well.

http://beemerphile.smugmug.com/All/a...DSC00978-L.jpg

http://beemerphile.smugmug.com/All/a...DSC00986-L.jpg

http://beemerphile.smugmug.com/All/a...DSC00989-L.jpg

I would go with Ed's #1 theory... nothing about this gun looks faked to me. I think it was legitimately refurbished during the Nazi era... the S/42 mark on the barrel identifies an armourer's replacement part. While the Large Eagle Swastika on the side is unusual... I don't think it is faked.

I've never seen a magazine base with convex (rather than concave) base.

Has there ever been a government specification to place the suffix letter on the receiver, or above the barrel serial number.

Would a factory receiver have been left that proud of the frame in the front while in battery?

The gap at the breech block to barrel breech looks particularly large.

Many things make me uncomfortable about these pictures.

Marc

See Weimar Lugers by Still, and other threads, that discuss how some were not marked; possibilities are;

1. Many thousands, perhaps hundred thousand + / - were hidden from the allied commission

2. Officers / Non-Coms and others who did not turn them in and personally owned them were not required to have them stamped with the 1920

3. Some police did not mark their weapons as this was an army directive originally

I share mrerick's concerns over the suffix on the left side (and the tiny 8), and above the numbers on the barrel. Not to mention all the other goofy marks that seem out of place. Kind of like they left an unsupervised trainee in a room with a gun and a set of stamping dies.
I'm not saying fake, but odd to say the least.
And why isn't the toggle closing?
dju

Why does the "5" on the barrel look so buffed and jagged when the "r" suffix seems to have a halo?

Well, what I had hoped was a historical piece looks now more like a circus oddity. Maybe it can be a shooter. I'll have a look at it to see why it is not in battery. Maybe a simple cause for that. Any idea what the suffix on the S/N mean? Is it an "r"?

It is an "r".

The guys with the books should be able to give you an approximate production date.

I'd, personally, not relegate it to the shooter category, but there are questions to be sure. I mean the gun has certainly "been around", but just where and when is not clear.
dju

I think it cool just because its odd. If the price was not terribly out of line I think I would have to have it.

The toggle is going all the way forward. It looks to me (a total clueless newb) that the barrel stops too far forward. What does the barrel stop against? Is there adjustment for the stop, or is that a weld-up repair?