'The Great Spandau Mystery' article + Spandau Luger Links
 

The link in the For Sale thread was bad, so I went over and hunted up a couple Spandau Luger threads to see if there was any interest in re-discussing them... ;)

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...-Spandau-Luger

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...-Spandau-Luger

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?22316-Spandau

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...Luger-Research

"I went over and hunted up a couple Spandau Luger threads to see if there was any interest in re-discussing them... "

Rich says with an evil grin, as he rubs his hands together in gleeful anticipation................;)

Friendlyfred re-opened his thread; I merely corrected a bad link to the 3-page Spandau discussion from 5 or so years ago...Ed said not to discuss it in the For Sale forum, so here is a chance for additional discussion...

I, for one, believe in Spandau Lugers...I don't think they are worth $30K, but that's just because I'm cheap...

I have to wonder at the statement that a "Spandau toggle die" was found...Have you even tried to stamp steel??? It is not easy to stamp a nice deep single letter, much less seven at once, plus a graphic...I believe that *IF* such a thing was done [to wit; stamp a blank Luger toggle with such a graphic + letters], it would require either a hydraulic press or a pile-driver-like implement, like those used in drop forging...You couldn't just whack it with a BMFH... :)

Maybe thats why the stamping on this one is crooked! :D

Seriously, I believe in Occam's razor theory....given a set of hypotheses, the simplest, the one that makes the least number of assumptions, is usually the correct one.
The fact is, NOT A SINGLE "SPANDAU" has been found ANYWHERE except in the US....ergo, they are fakes created IN the US.

With all due respect to everybody, the word "Spandau" and the Crown look engraved, not stamped, on the photos I've seen.

The link to That Other Luger Forum states the die found/noticed in Ohio was a "roll die"...I have no experience with roll dies...Does anyone know how such a setup works??? I'm speaking of a real production roll die procedure, not a basement fabrication...

In the past, I've bought S&W 659 slide sections with misplaced stamps on the sides...So I would guess that there is some kind of conveyor that transports the part under the roll die...But how is the pressure (many tons, I'm sure) applied??? How do you keep the part from being crushed???

Reviewed many of the previous threads on the "Spandau" luger and they brought up memories of past and current controversies surrounding this "U.S. only" luger "variation". As a collector of lugers for many years, I, for one, like the reassurance of provenence and authenticity of the lugers in my safe. Problem here is that one will NEVER really know if one (or all) are genuine or not. Another problem is that when one is available for sale, the price asked is at a level that the example is genuine and requires great act of faith on the buyer's part. This I personally find hard to rationalize. I believe that due to the controversy of the Spandau luger, one should (1) avoid purchase altogether, (2) buy at a price that reflects this doubt....$3500-$4000, and (3) expect that if you own one, even if "authenticated" in Texas, that you will probably have to expect to take a loss at time of sale. These are the facts when one gets involved with such a controversial handgun....there are just too many doubters out there to feel comfortable.

Herb..VERY well put Sir!

Rich..I, for one, believe in Spandau Lugers...I don't think they are worth $30K, but that's just because I'm cheap...

My Mentor Howie Nickel of Houston Tx. Had one in late 1945. I too am a believer..and at least as cheap as you are!

A roll stamp works very much like a knurler: The pattern is on a roll which is pressed against and rolled across the surface (here's one example: http://columbiamt.com/CMT-Marking-St...lder-Type.html ). The depth of any stamping depends on the pressure you can apply to a certain area, so a roll stamp is typically used for larger stampings (like slide legends) which would require a very high force to apply using a straight stamp. In other words: The roll stamp is a device that allows you to apply enough pressure without squishing the part with the excessive force needed for a straight stamp.

On smaller stampings it would make sense (to me, anyway) to use a straight stamp, but I don't know how to tell which process that was used by just looking at the end result. There may be subtle differences if you study it closely, but again, I sure don't know what it would be.

Here is a Spandau Gew88 that has been stamped.-or roll die?

Thanks Olle for your explanation, let me elaborate a bit.


Rich, (and all others interested in such things) a ROLL-Die is applied in a rolling manner. It is the same principle used for Knurling, such as in tool handles. In the case of a breechblock, it would have to be held stationary like in a vise and have a moving die "rolled" over it with sufficient pressure to leave the impression behind.

For the record, I am NOT a Spandau believer... as I have seen no published evidence in 50 years of casual study that have indicated that the arsenal at Spandau ever had the tooling and machinery to produce Luger pistols, only rifles so marked.

We all know that Lugers were produced at mulitple manufacturing locations. All of those unique locations left behind unique tool marks... enough so that without knowing the location or name of the manufacturer, you could come to a reasonable conclusion based on known tool marks. This situation simply doesn't exist on the Spandau "examples"... I regret that anyone paid $20K for one...

Luger repair Parts? MAYBE, but not the pistols. I think the breechblocks that are so inscribed are "probably" modified Erfurt manufacture. The official completion of breechblocks started by Erfurt as an experiment could certainly help explain the existence of a few prototype breechblocks that eventually made their way into pistols as a repair part... that is a plausible idea, but is pure speculation. Clear focus photographs of several Spandau breechblocks would reveal if they were roll marked or engraved. IF engraved, then I would say they are bogus. Just my $0.02

That's my story and I'm stick'in to it!

Following up Olle's post, the metal marking company has a WiKi with links to videos. This one shows roll stamping of a Sig P226 slide with a round die:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=nk754sCoTRo

This one shows a flat die on a round part:

http://marking-machines.info/?post_t...-videos&p=1721

I'll bet that machine could be a finger crusher!

Marc

Working with Postino, I've put together a PDF of the March, 1965 article written by M. Budd Mittleman and published by "Guns and Hunting" magazine.

I searched around the Internet and found that there is a "Myron Budd Mittleman" born in 1918 that holds a number of patents and is a recognized expert on reptiles. There is an article on him at age 16 after he was bitten by a Gila Monster that includes his photo - it could be the same person. He lost a tax case in New York City in 1983, and lived there at the time. This could be the same person, and if so is still alive, aged 93.

Postino has the original article and high resolution image scans. I also have a copy of them if needed.

Marc

Just for the sake of discussion:

No archive material has been found that supports the existance of Spandau lugers. We know that the Spandau arsenal reworked 9mm Navy lugers and Artilleries to 10cm barrel versions in order to comply with IACC demands, some archive material about that work is available, but there is no proof that Spandau ever marked these pistols with their own name, or ever had a production facility for the P08.

No paper ...but the pistols exist.

The majority of the "Spandau" lugers were issued to and carried by those that were spirited away by "Odessa", although neither ever existed. They wanted all to remember " Herr Hess" in Spandau, Und iffin yew git caught,yew gunna be rite der wif hym.:D

They were probably issued to the Spandau Ballet, for personal protection ;)

Even Fakes Are Rare
 

Thank you Marc for posting the Mittleman article from 1965. More current authors are skeptical regarding Spandau Lugers. The authors in every publication that I have advise the reader to beware of Spandau Luger fakes Many of the experts believe that all Spandau Luger are fakes.

The Mittleman article states that the Spandau Luger number 985d is a fake. I have a Spandau Luger number 6276b. The markings on my Spandau are similar to Mittleman's number 985d.

I have not been fortunate to examine any Spandau Lugers except mine. However my Spandau was presented as a fake and was priced accordingly. I was pleased to acquire my Spandau. How often do you see any Spandau Lugers?

Spandau Luger
 

Seems to me we could get the guy who runs the add for the "Iron Cross" lugers in the Guns and Ammo magazine to crank out 500 or so "genuine" Spandau Lugers.

Start them out at $3995.00 or so for the first run and then price the rest accordingly. It would certainly give a lot of people something to shoot for or at..............LOL!

I'm still waiting for the rediscovery of the ultra-rare Spandex lugers. They were very comfortable to wear, as legend has it ;)