1912 Refinish Or Not...???
 

What do you all think...original finish or not...?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=84878671

Pete -

I am guessing that it is not the original finish for two reasons:

(1) He makes this statement in his listing: "It looks like bottom part of the barrel at the chamber and left side at the chamber were spot touch up with rust blue after some pitting was removed." I don't know if you can do a "spot touch up" with anything other than typical cold blue; however, I could be wrong.

(2) And I would have expected to see some indication of finish wear beneath the safety lever. Maybe it is there, but I can't see it.

So I am going to guess that it has been refinished in at least in some places with typical cold blue.

Mauser720-Ron

Hi Ron,

The side view photos and inside frame well photos look really promising. Lots of "in the white" surfaces down in the wells.

There are no "halos" on the barrel serial number. Depth of the barrel SN looks pretty shallow as well

Also...no "halos" on the 2-digit numbers on the extractor and the toggle link.

The partially cropped "9" on the chamber date had me worried as well.

I think parts of this gun may have had touch ups...other parts may still have their original finish.

Also...no impact or strike marks along the back of the frame where you usually see contact with the toggle train in its rear-most travel during firing :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/1912.jpg

The barrel was clearly redone but the rest is questionable and does look good. I wonder if it was pulled to redo the barrel wear from the holster or pitting. I know a guy who lathed one ever so slighlty to remove marks. That may have been doen to this barrrel. Rick B

The magazine is a nice numbered and proofed Effurt. With one proof it should be post 1912 to 1918.

Nice gun, but I would have to say a redo for sure.
It looks like a wire wheel was used except around the proof marks and edges. They were most likely done by hand as they appear smoother than the rest of the finish. The forward toggle link pivot joints have no ware, and neither does the rear of the frame.
There are other inconsistencies also, minor by themselves but taken together with the redone barrel, I vote redo on the entire finish.

Vern

I'm not so sure. It looks original to me. The hold open pin is still in the white, I think. Hard to be sure from his photos. The straw shows aging which would be very difficult to reproduce. I think it's original except for the barrel. My thought would be that someone tried to remove an import mark and botched it up. Removing part of the barrel SN in the process.

Ron

I agree with Ron about the added holdopen pin being in the white, as is the center toggle axle retaining pin. I am much less sanguine about the apparent lack of fire blue on the breechblock pin and the sear spring.

I think that what we have here is a sterling demonstration that photo analysis cannot be the final arbiter of condition of a Luger.

--Dwight

I disagree as the barrel is not original and the photos clearly show this. I have yet to see two separate stampings be light together. Those photos are perfect in this area. For bluing,, no I agree it would be hard to tell. Rick B

"I disagree as the barrel is not original and the photos clearly show this."

Rick,

What indicates that the barrel is not original?

Ron

The finish is not original on the barrel. Sorry if I made it sound like i meant the actual barrel. Rick B

Dwight...

No agrument here...but it does give newcomers whom are being easily taken for $ 2000-4000 by the Luger selling "sharks" in the USA and elsewhere some things and areas to keep in mind when venturing out for that first collector purchase...

Some close-ups of this gun on G-B :

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/no_halo_1.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/no_halo_2.jpg

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/front_sn.jpg

Pete,

Thanks for the close-ups. It does appear that it has been re-finished at some point. No "cratering" visible on the periphery of the numbers. Whoever did it, did a nice job of matching the hue of the original rust blue of the era.

Ron

Here is a 1914 example off the Simpsons LTD site...

http://forum.lugerforum.com/lfupload/simpson_1914.jpg

Ron,

You may be right...I do not think this one offered on G-B was 100% refinished...just key areas that were "blended"...for a touch-up.

Many photos of the grip strap and area under the trigger plate show old finish and gunk and debris...

Same with the frame wells...does not seem like the gun was chemically cleaned in a bath.

Most of the strawed parts look old and aged...so maybe they were un-touched as well...

In my opinion there is no question that the gun has been refinished. The added hold-open's situation would indicate that not the whole gun but certainly the barrel and a few other parts.

When you say ""Also...no "halos" on the 2-digit numbers on the extractor and the toggle link."" what is Halos?
Alf

somebody write up a good explanation of what a halo is and when you see one (I know that rust blue aren't halo'd??) and I'll add it to the FAQ

OK: I am sure if I get this wrong someone will jump on me. Please feel free to correct me.

Halo
To encircle with or as if with a halo.

Halos are most often associated with the stamping of harden metal such as barrels, extractors, breach blocks and some pins.

As the stamp makes its indent the metal under the stamp must go somewhere, in more ductile metal it is absorbed over a large area but in harden metals this absorption is resisted and some of the metal is pushed up causing a slight rise or bump. After bluing this bump wares at an accelerated rate, as a result the bluing in this area takes on a lighter appearance resulting in a â??haloâ?�. A change in crystalline structure (hardening) may also occur adjacent to the stamping reducing the effectiveness of bluing agents and over time cause the same halo effect.

If a gun is refinished this slight bump/hardening is removed and a halo will not reform naturally.

You can simulate the difference between hard and soft metals by using a candle and pencil tip and varying the temperature of the candle.

Vern

Vern,

A good start, but headed in a slightly wrong direction.
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Halo: Encircled with or as if with a halo.

Halo is an effect seen associated with the stamping of blued steel after the bluing has been applied.

Compression of the steel surrounding the stamping, possibly changing its crystalline structure, alters the appearance of the bluing of the affected steel, making it appear lighter and "washed out".

Sometimes the steel at the edges of the stamp is displaced upward.

Halo is one indicator of authenticity of finish on a Luger pistol. Certain markings are known to have been applied after the blue, and these marks usually will display halo. If a gun is refinished, the area of compressed steel will accept bluing as any other steel, and the halo will be eliminated. Any steel displacement will be smoothed out in the steel preparation process.
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It would be interesting to see an actual metallurgical explanation of the phenomenon.

--Dwight