I have to ask... reproduction Lugers?
 

I am so new to this.. that believe it or not, at the time of this post... my first Luger is still on its way to me.

It is well known that several companies are making accurate, safe, shooting reproductions of various period firearms (ie early match/flint/cap lock type, 'cowboy guns', etc).

Considering the precision, accuracy, and popularity of the Luger... why is it that there are no full reproductions on the market?

Terry,

I'm not much older at this than you are. I just fired my "shooter" for the first time last weekend and it was a thrill!

Check out Shadow's videos on Luger disassembly and then take your pistol apart a few times. You'll quickly see that just about every component is machined rather than stamped.

Go to YouTube and search for Shadowdog500. Here's one of his videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkXr4dXT_Os

I could be wrong on this, but IMHO, there are so many complex and intricate steps involved in the machining and construction of a Luger that it isn't economically feasible to reproduce them. A few companies tried, but apparently there wasn't enough of a market to sustain them in business.

If I'm off base, some other members will correct me.

Dave in TN.

Mauser reintroduced the Luger for a time beginning in the early 70s. Krieghoff recently made a very limited run. There is an outfir in Texas that makes a stainless Luger. Used to be distributed by Mitchell and then Stoeger, it's now an as ordered item.

Stoeger and Erma marketed Luger "look likes", not true Lugers, they were blow back operated, the toggle was window dressing. The Stoegers were chambered in 22 LR. Most of the Emas were also 22 LRs but a few were chambered in 32 ACP and 380 ACP.

Along the way there were a few odd ones, all rather obscure items in the collector's realm today.

There are few smits turning out custom Lugers in 45 ACP etc., but these are based on existing Luger parts.

<begin rant>
IMHO the success, or more accurately lack thereof, of Luger (and other) repros is due directly to the incredible foolishness of the people involved. I swear these folks must be either near-sighted bean counters or complete idiots.
I have never in my life met a gun person who wanted to buy a repro that looked nothing like the original. Otherwise he would not be in the market for a "repro"!
If I want a repro "Schwartzkopf XYZ", I expect it to look EXACTLY like the original. Not sorta kinda similar! If the original was blued, I want it blued, not shiny stainless with pink stripes! And parts must be interchangeable (repro means REPRO)!
I also don't want the importer's or manufacturer's name badly scrawled in inch high letters, totally and utterly ruining any aesthetic quality the gun might possibly have had.
Lastly, the damn gun has to actually function correctly (hello, Mitchell, Stoeger, et al) !!!
If these idiots would DO IT RIGHT, they could put just about any price on repros they want and I and most of us would pay it.
As proof of this whole concept I offer up USFA. I haven't coughed up the $1800 for their model 1910 Colt 45 auto replica, but I certainly intend to soon.
<end rant>

I didn't mean to start a rant session... but here was my thought and why I posted.

But first... a commercial...

I received my first Luger today. I am not able to register it until Thursday so it will sit idle until them. I will say that I am REALLY excited to have it.

We not return you to the post, already in progress.

As I said, it is known the luger has a quick, smooth action, is very comfortable to hold, is a natural pistol to point, well constructed, etc. But, as many have pointed out on the forum, most of the decent quality Lugers out there are much better valued as a collector piece than a shooter. In fact, every time the trigger is pulled, a risk is taken.

I thought that it would be much nicer if a decent quality knock off was made that maintained the fine qualities of the Luger (with a few modern upgrades), that provided the collector with a shooter that performed LIKE the collectable Lugers, and that one could enjoy shooting without devaluing the collection.

Obiviously these would be no more collectable than on of the italian made reproduction Colt Peacemakers. But I sould surely rather shoot the $250 knock off than an original historic Peacemaker.

I didn't intend to turn this into a heated debate. It was a simple question.

As an Engineer I am quite familiar with the manufacturing process as my industry deals with all facets of manufacturing. Considering the state of CNC machining, and the process required to produce firearms that are mostly machined (SIG Sauer, etc), it would not appear that a Luger would take (significantly) more manufacturing time than a high end machined pistol.

Would it retail in the $250 range? Probably not, by comparison a knock off peacemaker is a pretty easy thing to machine. Would it be worth $750 to have a solid shooter that mimic's the performance of your collector Luger, but keeps the piece thats really worth money safe from wear and accidental damage? I am not sure.. its why I tossed it out there.

The Mauser Parabellum which sold for $400 in 1975 would cost $1,580 in this year's dollar$, so their value has dropped precipitously.

I understand--not authoritatively--that the new Krieghoffs are being made on CNC machines. I wonder how much it actually costs to make one like this, as opposed to the $15k they are trying to screw out of the collector's market?

--Dwight

It would be an interesting analysis to do.

A good engineer could solid model every part of a Luger without much difficulty. Although very advanced for its time, and quite unique now, there are probably components of the CNC machine that would produce the parts that are more complicated than any single part in a Luger.

Once modeled it could be translated into a CNC program in the same way any other modern firearm is produced. Hand fitting? Well given the precision of todays automation, hand fitting would be minimized if not eliminated. It would then be a matter of cranking out matching parts in batches for later kitting and assembly.On a mass production scale, even a few hundred units a year, I can't see the cost each being anywhere near $15K each.

Now, if it was a small machine shop where someone took the pains to measure out and build a CNC program off a Luger in order to do small quantities, OR is actually hand machining to match, I could see the cost being fairly high just due to the man hours required. Actually, the man hours alone would account for a good amount of that $15K. If you average it out to man hours/machine hours at $80/hour, that $15K is about 190 working hours (about 5 weeks) per Luger. In a small shop, to build a firearm of that complexity... that seems reasonable.

Maybe there just isn't enough interest in "shooter" Lugers other than occasional trips to the range. I am hoping to fire mine this weekend for the first time and find out for myself, but anyone that I have EVER talked to that has fired a Luger has related how enjoyable, natural, and accurate the pistol was compared to modern firearms. I have to admit that holding it feels like it was made to be in my hand, and dry firing with snap caps is effortless compared to my other firearms.

All of what I have heard begged the question; "If the Luger is so natural, smooth, and accurate as people claim, then would a Luger built with modern technology and materials rival stock guns used in competition? (IDPA, etc)"

Given the capabilities of CNC manufacture, I wonder if it would be cheaper to produce the barrel and receiver as one piece?

--Dwight

I had one of the stainless Mitchell Lugers, which was an exact copy of an original Luger. The machining on the gun looked great but the tolerances were not as tight as my S/42, and the soft stainless ramps definitely wore more quickly than the original Lugers. Last year I spoke to Mr. Romo who is the person who makes the stainless Lugers. He told me the retail price of a new gun which I vaguely remember being around $650.

I wonder how much more it would cost to have him tighten up the tolerances and switch to better steel. Allot of people here donâ??t like the stainless guns but I really think he had a good idea that just needed tweaking. I think with some work he could probably produce a really nice Luger that is priced under $2K. If $2K sounds like allot remember back when they were making them, a new Luger cost around 2.5 times the price of a new colt 1911.

Chris

You know, it's possible we're all missing a central truth here.
For the most part we're a bunch of old farts who know what a Luger was/is and appreciate them and the history associated with them.

Maybe newer generations simply aren't interested. That would explain the failure of the Mauser Luger rebirth in the 70's!

Maybe the Mitchell would have failed even if it wasn't a gaudy POS.

Food for thought.

I certainly hope that is not the case because in not too many years we GOFs (grumpy old farts) are going to die off. I keep hoping that the younger generation will catch the bug of Luger collecting and keep it alive. I know it is tough for a youngster to collect Lugers due to the incredible recent rise in prices, but it was tough for me too when I was earning $99.50 a month. Somehow we have to encourage new folks and be careful not to make a newbie feel like an outsider.

This entire disscussion is moot........Once the cost of a repro exceeds $600 to $700 you have reached the point of buying a shooter Luger, the excellence of which will far exceed in quality whatever you can buy in a reproduction.

Is it moot?

What happens when the shooter Lugers all wear out? Then what? Does the beautiful shooting quality of the Luger simply fade into history?

Is the modern 1911 that much better than the Luger as a competition pistol?

If the market for faithfully exact Luger reproductions was as large as it is for reproductions of the Colt Single Action Army revolver, let alone the market for the M1911A1 .45 ACP, there would be several companies making them and selling them at competitive prices. However, the Luger lacks the positive heroic mystique to be personally identified with by most shooters like the SAA (with the exception of German military reenactors), or the serious practicality of the M1911A1. Uberti and Kimber are both probably capable of producing exactly what the most demanding of us would want for a reproduction Luger, if there was a large enough market for them.

In 1949 when there were plenty of $50 original 9mm lugers around, but not much inexpensive 9mm ammo, Bill Ruger decided to make a 22LR design that was economic to build but still felt like a luger to shoot. You can still purchase one of his Ruger standards (Mk1) for around $250. Too bad that he didn't later add a 9mm Toggle top. TH

Lugerdoc,

Ruger calls it the Mark III now, and in addition to several models in their traditional Luger like configuration, they've a new model, the 22/45 Mark III, that's configured to have the feel of a M1911A1.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firear...0121&return=Y#