Ammunition
 

I have some ammunition that I believe may be for the Luger. A picture is attached. I have found some info on it and know that it is an iron core bullet. Each package holds 16 rounds. One is full and one has 10 rounds. It is German and was manufactured 1941 -1942. Does anyone have more facts on this stuff? Here are the sites where I found info.

http://www.landofborchardt.com/ammo.html#dwm1

http://cartridgecollectors.org/intro9mm/

thanks,

I could be wrong, but it is either sub-machine gun or proof firing ammo.

Ed

Hi! They look different from WW2 Luger ammo I have..
But they are both packed in boxes with 16 rounds and have iron core (quite normal for that age). A picture of the butt might help

Hi,

The shortage of raw materials, especially copper and lead, forced the Germans to use other materials instead. They heavily relied on the iron slag core (Sintereisenkern) as a substitute.

This was labeled as 'Pistolenpatrone m. 08', thus useable in the P08, P38, submachineguns, etc...

The primers were made by 'dnf', Rheinische-Westfaelische Sprengstoff AG, Stadeln plant near Nuernberg.
No reference for the 'fag' ordnance code.


The bullets with lacquered iron cases usually had a warning on the boxes that they were only limitedly useable for the P08. Steel casings were difficult to extract from the P08.

Can you give us some codes on the bullet bases?

The "black" tip doesn't mean anything for WW2 ammo?


Ed

The text at the bottom of the picture is what is on the label on the box.

The head stamp has 4 markings: St+ fag 42 2

The bullet measures .353 at the neck of the case.

Hi Ed,

Yes, this is the famed "Black Widow" ammo :D ....

St+ is the 'stahl' or 'steel' code. Are the cases steel or brass? If they have 'St' on the bottom, I'd suspect them to be steel cases.

Afternoon All,

Ed, proof ammo has a totally green base on the cartridge

from the label, top to bottom and left to right

16 (qty) pistol cartridge.....08 mE= mit Eisenkern (mild steel core ball bullet)

1942 fag 2 = production year, manufacterer, and lot code

the next two lines are for the components for the loaded cartridge........

The No. Stb.P stands for St abchenpulver with an umlaut over the small a and it means Chopped Tube Propellant (single-perforated grain) and more than likely are the mfg codes and supplier info for the powder mfg. and lot code of the powder..........this is a swag on this part......

Patrh. is abbrev. for cartridge case (Patronenhulse).......again, numbers mean supplier and lot code........another swag from my info..........

Kern is the type of bulletand production codes and lot numbers and i'll have to go with Gerben on the primer info......i can't read German that well

HTH, Regards, Paul

ahhh, excellent, thanks!

:)

Ammo Identification
 

Afternoon,

after seeing the headstamp info, i can now supply more info


Ed, yes it does mean something...............The bullet tip is black because the it indicates that it is has a mildly armor-piercing steel core :D :D

A four position element headstamp was used, with letter codes for producers after 1940

starting at 12oclock with the 3 letter producer code at that position (fag)has to be a german plant as its not in my list of occupied country codes.....

At 3oclock position,the symol indicates the case material, St or St+ indicates a steel case, either plated or lacquered..........

Further definitions are available for all types of material for the cases........

At the 6oclock position, is the lot # for the production of the c.i.q. (cartridge in question)...... 2 on example

At the 9oclock position is the year of production.....1942 on example

There are well over 100 letter type producer codes known,after the code change in 1940, most codes were 3 lower case letters, some are only 2 letters and only 2 "KNOWN" 1 letter codes................


Am working on the code for "fag" and if i find it, will post that info also.......

HTH, Regards, Paul

:cheers:

Thanks for the info so far!!

Does this stuff have any collector value?

Hi,

It certainly has. It also has a 'do not' value as in 'do not use in P08'.

The Germans weren't lying on their labels (at least not on these).

I paid about $2 for a 1917 DWM 9mm cartrigde once.

I think a full, opened box with original ammo can go for about twice the price of normal ammo with added value for rare types, makers, etc....

Just happen to have a slightly larger packaging crate (sadly empty :) ), the labels on this one might interest you....

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...&threadid=5714

(the box now indeed houses my CD-collection <grin>)

fag EFG Enwicklungs- Fahrzeugbau GmbH.
Berlin- Baumschulenweg, Bodelschwinghstr.22-24

Gentleman I have a rare copy 777 pages of the original code book . If I can help any one
private e mail me. cover of book reads .
Liste
der
Fertigungskennzeichen fur Waffen, Munition und Gerat
( Nach Buchstabengruppen geordnet)
Berlin 1944
gedruckt im Oberkommando des Heeres

Richard,

what a SWEET piece of history you have...........would love to see a pic of the cover so i can print it and at to my must find list.........

If you can, Gerben was asking above what plant his "RFO" marked wooden case came from....the link for its pics are right above yor answers.......

How did you ever come across this copy ????

TIA, Regards, Paul

Richie,

If it's copyable, I'm very, very interested in a copy.
You may even consider doing a 'republishing' of the thing!

The ammunition is for sale at Gunbroker.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=30716463