1942, 1943, 1944 Krieghoff questions
 

Okay, I have been reading Mr. Gibson's book
Production for these years:
1942: 300
1943: 300
1944: 200

For those of you that have any anecdotal data - which date seems to be the most common? The rarest? Just trying to get a better understanding of which year has the most examples that are known to exist today. What's a ballpark value of one of these puppies these days in like 90-93%?
Thanks,
Matt

Matt,
I know that I have a prized 1943 with both mags. I believe that TomA also has a set. But, like all very rare guns, the price is really unknown. The saying is that something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. The internet also has mixed prices up a lot.

Are you referring to certain HK's with or without mags? A range of 90-93% is sorta subjective. An eager sellers (don't wanter) price with his evaluation of percent blue will be different than a dealers. But just finding one of these guns that you mentioned is a big trick. Then, you had better know what you are looking at. Just look at pages 175 and 179 of Gibsons book and note the serial numbers on these 1940 and 1941 HK's. Lotsa fraud out there. Have a disinterested but knowlegable friend with you when you look at a HK and try to determine a price.
Big Norm

and kreigs are not something for the faint of heart, they start at $2400 for a crappy one, :) If anyone has one cheaper, (a lot cheaper would make the wife happy) please contact me :)


Ed

Yes, I know what that's all about (worth only what someone will pay for it)!! I was just trying to get a sense of current range - figure a pretty nice gun that a reputable dealer would put in that condition with a matching mag. I realize that the 2nd matching mag adds yet another premium to the gun, etc. But these come up for sale so rarely, it makes me wonder.

As to the quantities for each of the year's, I figured you could go by the recorded serial numbers in Gibson's book, as a rough rule of thumb. More recorded numbers would possibly mean more examples of the gun. However, the actual quantities recorded are so low that it's really impossible to extrapolate from just that one observation. Just pondering out loud I suppose.
:)

I recently sold a P-code with 2 matching mags, 99%+ for $13.5K and only sold it because it was part of a package deal. Kriegs are like crack cocaine: highly addictive and strictly a sellers market.

Tom A

Even if you should find a HK mag, it will cost big money. I was just surfing the net last night with an adult beverage in hand and I saw one for sale for $1000. The serial number was P3A. If I remember the site, I'll get back with everyone. Cripe, that price is right up there with a Borchardt magazine.
Big Norm

I was just thinking (thats a dangerous thing for me to do). Wasn't there a thing going around a few years ago that there were a bunch of fake 1944 HK's circulating? I was talking to the infamous Harvy Branch at an OGCA meeting about it and Ralph Shatttuck was standing behind me. It just happens that Ralph was looking for someone with an export license that he wanted to use because he had just sold an 1944 HK to a foreign guy. Ralph really got upset with me.
Big Norm

The general consensus is that *many* 1944 and ALL 1945 Krieghoffs are bogus. Be careful....

Tom A

A correction....

Not all second series 1944s and 1945 HKs are fake. Someone should someday - ask me how I know. And the differences between a "real" and "bogus" 2nd series '44 or 1945.

As a fact - not as "I heard it at a gunshow"....

Not all are bogus - certainly not "ALL 1945" HKs....

Welcome to 25+ years of HK collecting and research.

John

but, I already know :D

Well - I know you do know... I told you why on the damned phone!!!

:D

LOL!!!

John D.

At last April's Reno gun show a 1943 Krieghoff with two matching mags (one may have been a forced match) and a holster sold before the show opened for $6,000. I didn't make a note of the serial number, but I seem to remember it was in the 11,000 range. It was in better than 90% condition. My guess is you couldn't buy it today for that price. Krieghoff's are going up very fast, due to limited availability.

Bob M.

Now I am afraid to take pictures of my 1943 HK with two matching mags. There seems to be too many of them with two matching mags in supposedly excellent condition.
Big Norm

The P3A commercial HK mag that I mentioned earlier is for sale by Simpson.

P3A COMMERCIAL KRIEGHOFF MAGAZINE; 78% blue, 122 Code E37, excellent condition, $1200

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...acfa79cc154c84

I said that it was for sale for $1000 but I was wrong. But this seems like a lot of money for a Luger magazine, even a HK magazine.
Big Norm

I will readily defer to John D.'s scholarship in Krieghoffs. As a relative newbie to the field, my "knowledge" has been acquired through Gibson, personal observation and conversations with long time khoff collectors. I cannot attest to the validity of their comments, merely the consistency of them re: '44 and '45 pistols.

Now, navy guns, that is something entirely different.

Tom A

Norm, you are right, it is a reblue fake, please send it to me to use as a "shooter". :D

You do not have to take pictures of her ahead of time. :roflmao:

so, are these fakes obvious or are they that good? If I sat down with the gun, Gibson's book, and had ample time, would I find anomalies that would make me suspect? Are the fakers as good as the documentation?
-Matt

Matt,

Of the 3-4 fake Kriegs I have encountered, one was a fantasy piece and the others were sufficiently good replicas that they required micrometer measurement and high magnification to spot the problems. There is a lot of money at stake so the fakes have to be very good.

Tom A

There was one Krieghoff that I saw that I wouldn't call a fake, it was more of a hachet job. But I find it interesting that someone will go to the level of trouble that you describe.
Thanks,
Matt

Hey Matt and Tom..!

Yes - as Tom mentions - there are differences. Most of the faked ones I've seen fall into several categories. Sideframe HK have their own "issues" - but most in the 1940+ era have some of the following earmarks: Look for incorrect polishing of some of the small parts. Look especially at the toggle train (top, sides, chamfer and even the underside). Also - look at the "proofs" and stamps, as they have been redone to cover the fact the HK has been "restored". It also helps to know what an original stamps should look like. As well - look at the frame/rail polish. It's always there on boosted HKs, but it's incorrect much of the time. The "thumbprint" used to be a good indication, but some of the "restorers" have matched that pretty danged well....

For the "G", "S" 36, 936, 1937 & 1938 dated HKs - they have another set to look for as well....

Isn't collectung "fun"??!!!

John D.

John,

One truth remains: Tuition at Luger U is EXPENSIVE!

Thanks for the help in getting my Kreighoff operation started correctly.

Tom A.

and requires (or should), lots of study time!


:D

Honest or bogus...???

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/krieghoff45.htm

I only own one HK and have focused to Swiss collecting and know nothing about these late date HK's, but a couple of questions about this one that was for sale (and now is sold) are as follows :

1. The spacing of the chamber date numbers of "1945" seems more tightly bunched together than those 1945's shown in Gibson's book on page 187 and 188. Is this one wrong, are the two photo'd in Gibson wrong, or are both correct and differing variations ?

2. The transition of the bottom part of the trigger guard where is merges with the front grip strap is not shown in the web site photo as being that typical HK "v" shaped transition. Is this more rounded transition correct on a 1945 HK ?

3. If a 1945 HK should have the C-4 die type, shouldn't the bottom of the "O" in the word Krieghoff have more of a "v' shape to the bottom of the "O" ? The photo resolution and the whiting in the letters makes it diffucult to tell one way or the other.

Pete,

I found this interesting....

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/krieghoffmenu.htm

This wouldn't be you, would it?
Seems these folks are somewhat touchy...

Hi Steve,

That is probably a reference to me. I was "borrowing" their photos for show & tell earlier on the Luger Forum. I still do not understand how an outfit that wants to take your money will not let you, easily, download their photos for your purchase documentation.

Last Reno show I attended, Ralph Shattuck told me the story, in reference to using photos on the PIA site, that "we" (his word...) just collected a $ 10K settlement from some collector that was using their photos on the Internet.

I also left a little joke message in the PIA Guest Book area that said "...This means you too, Ralph...".

Ralph's story did impress upon me :

1. It was a little warning in my direction to stop using their photos publically. Since then, I just use a hot link to their web site on the Luger Forum.

2. Confirmed to me Ralph's business and financial interest in the PIA outfit.

the only problem I have with this is that there is a huge differnce in using photos to try and sell, i.e. borrowing photos and using them for reselling an item. Rather than for research or teaching others. That is legal, any copyright or legal papers state that under copyright that you may use parts of a book, article, and I would imagine website, as long as it is in a teaching environment and not meant for profit? A "percentage, usually 10% is what i have heard may be used.

Besides, although Right Click is turned off, Edit COPY is not. You choose Select All and copy everything and paste it into a new word document,

or else you save the entire webpage, thus saving the same pictures?

Ed

I see....

For what it's worth: I know two collectors that sold their 1945 HK's 15 to 25 years ago because they believed they were not correct. One of them told me a story about a guy who died and when he went into the dead man's workshop he found numerous receivers dated 1945, along with other HK parts. The man who died was an machinest. This man said he saw this and I have no doubt that he made numerous 1945 dated HK's. This took place 40 to 50 years ago. So, perhaps there are some real 1945 HK and this man used one of them as his model, but from what I was told and from the source ( a highly reputable collector), I believe a lot of the 1945 HK's are outright fakes. -- Bill

Hey Bill,

Yep - I agree and heard the same account some time ago. For that, and out of the small sample I've looked at over the years, I know of one 1945 that is highly suspect. However, the others appear correct, but unfortunately - it's a small sample to draw from, so we may never know how many are "right" and how many have been "manufactured" post 1945. FWIW - I also believe there are some second variation 1944 HKs that fall into the same category...

Best to you!

John

Bill,

I have heard the same story. The guy, I was told, was a retired commercial pilot and skilled machinist and liked making fantasy pieces just to see what people would believe.

Stranger things have happened.

Tom A

what you do all think of this one? I just found it today.
http://www.rockislandauction.com/auctions/search2.php
go to item number 1131.

It scares me too. Gibson is very knowledgable but there are mistakes in his book....