British Markings: Do they lower the value of the Luger?
 

This 1911 is totally matched, including grips and magazine and is in very good condition. This Luger is 91 years old and has not been refinished, so the finish is a little rough in some places, but the gun is otherwise perfect.


Do the British markings have an impact on the collector (read "money") value of this gun?


Would appreciate any information you can provide.


Thanks,

Luke

Re: British Markings: Do they lower the value of the Luger?
 

Luke,

The two examples of US weapons sent to England under the Lend-Lease Act that I mentioned in the previous discussion are good examples of how the British proofs affect value. For a long time the M1 Rifles with British proofs were shunned because of the incorrectly termed "import marks". Collectors started to notice that these rifles had been returned to the US in virtually unused condition, and that they were in proper matching condition. These rifles were made in late 1941 and early 1942, and original examples without the British proofs were extremely rare as there was a huge rebuild program of M1 Rifles following WWII. The British proofed Lend-Lease M1 Rifles are now sought by collectors, but they will not bring the same money as an all matching M1 Rifle of the same period without the British proofs.

For a while the 1911A1 pistol with British proofs would bring a slight premium as it was known that these were Lend-Lease pistols, and collectors sought them as a variation of the 1911A1. A few years ago this changed, and condition for condition the British proofed 1911A1 will not bring as much as a correct 1911A1 without British proofs. More of the 1911A1 pistols survived in original condition as there was no rebuild program on these pistols following WWII.

The British proofs are a part of the pistol's history, and are only an indication that at some time in it's past it visited England.

That was interesting Johnny! (EOM)
 

Re: British Markings: Do they lower the value of the Luger?
 

I bought an all original Ithaca 1911A1 last year with correct British proofs, 3 correct S toed mags, numbered cleaning rod,original plastic grips in the kraft box. Pistol is a strong 97% parkerizing w/no mars dings or scratches. Barrel is brite + shiney. I picked it up at a local gun store for $450. Fortunately the owner did'nt realize what it was. Have seen the same for $800+ at CA and NV gun shows. WW2 US Military pistols seem to be doing well. But, if it was not British proofed. Would likely be $1000.

Re: British Markings: Do they lower the value of the Luger?
 

Comparing M1 rifles and 1911 pistols with British proofs to Lugers with British markings is comparing apples to oranges. The M1s and 1911s are martially marked and were issued to troops while so marked, while the Lugers were given the British markings after cessation of hostilities, and so are civilian markings. The M1s and 1911s are considered legitimate, unaltered military weapons, while the Luger is only marked for import purposes. Most such Lugers are not very collectible, and are little more valuable than shooter quality guns.

That's discouraging, Marney . . . .
 

I paid $1300 for this Luger because it was totally matching, including grips and magazine. I actually considered the British markings a plus, as it added a bit more history to the Luger. Live and learn . . . the hard way.

Re: British Markings: Do they lower the value of the Luger?
 

The markings on the M1 Rifles and 1911A1 pistols are not military markings. They are commercial proofs applied when the military weapons were released by the British government for commercial sale. The weapons were sent to England during WWII, but were not proofed until the 1950's and '60's before many of them were returned to the US through commercial channels.

There are US weapons with British Military acceptance marks, but the proof marks we have been discussing are not military.

Re: British Markings: Do they lower the value of the Luger?
 

Luke, It has been my experience, that the only collectors that consider the British proof house markings on a luger a plus, are those who collect British pistols. I had both PO8s & LPO8s so marked, and generally found them difficult to sell to Luger collectors.

Re: British Markings: Do they lower the value of the Luger?
 

I personally don't mind the Brit proof marks and as a collector, am very interested in the Lend Lease Program, during WW2. There is a very wide spectrum in the collection of Lugers in particular. For example I really like Capture Papers, and think that they add modest value to a weapon while other collectors can take them or leave them. I collect more for the history of the gun, and a capture paper gives me a glimpse into where the gun has been as do the Lend Lease proofmarks. I think you have a heck of a pistol here.


Till Next Time,


Tim

Re: British Markings: Do they lower the value of the Luger?
 

I agree with Tom h's comments. Collectability is determined by the context of the collection. Generally, Luger collectors have been breed to desire factory mint condition examples...this is unfortuniate IMO. Most other types of firearms collectors (at least military and guns of the West types) have a deeper appreciation of spectrum. I think that this view in Luger will change and mature in time, I really think that we are already seeing it.

Re: That's discouraging, Marney . . . .
 

Luke if it the Luger I am thinking of and having seen it I don't think you got hurt one bit. It was a beautiful example of the Luger. I also think that the British proofs add another part to its history. I don't think that some of the remarks should discourage you on your purchase. You liked it and you bought it your the one that needs to know if you are satisfied. Still think it was a great looking example. I think that if I saw some of the items that the other people think were great they might not appeal to me, its your collection. IMHO

Re: That's discouraging, Marney . . . .
 

Thank you, Bob. My feelings exactly, now that I have had time to crunch on it.


I really like this Luger, and I have no plans to ever sell it. So, selling price is not a big issue. By the time my son, who will inherit it, decides to sell the gun, it will be worth whatever he can get.

Re: British Markings: Do they lower the value of the Luger?
 

Dear All - there is one aspect of all this that seems to have escaped you, and that is that a large number of handguns of all kinds, Lugers included, managed to escape the massacre of our handguns in 1997/8. Those who had the ability to send their handguns out of UK before the ban may have unwittingly contributed to the fund of the comparatively large numbers of British proof marked Lugers now appearing in your market places. Regard these weapons with a certain reverence, if you please, like the drowning man throwing his children onto the lifeboat. After over 30 years I could not bear to be parted from seven of my guns - they are in the drawer beside me as I write this note, imagine how one collector, and Mr Shattuck must know who he is, who had 1800 Lugers to be destroyed unless he got them to the good old USA.... these British proofed Lugers have a history to them that I would not wish on any of you, a history of the desperation of a lame government and its knee-jerk reaction. These Lugers were our children, if you like to think of them like that, saved from destruction. Now they are yours. Take good care of them.


TF

THANKS to all for the comprehensive responses . . . .
 

They represent a fairly good educational string in British proofing, and I have copied all of them off into a reference file. Thanks again. Luke

Luke Re: British Markings: Do they lower the value of the Luger?
 

Told you there would be more to this than just a plain British Marking as some people seem to have inferred. Now as you can see from this posting some additional history may/and probably is related to your Luger. If you don't want it you can send it to me and I will give the poor thing a home after it was probably exiled from England

Re: Luke Re: British Markings: Do they lower the value of the Luger?
 

dear Tracey - for 'England' read 'great Britain' apart from Northern Ireland. the place where you would have thought really needed gun control was left out of the ban. Go figure.


TF

Photos of the British Markings...?
 

Hello Luke,


Would it be possible to post a photo or two of the British markings ?


This thread was very educational for this newcomer, but I cannot visualize the markings being discussed...

Re: Photos of the British Markings...?
 

Pete,

A photo is posted in an earlier post of mine which started with "H E L P ..."

If you are unable to get that one, let me know by email and I will send a copy directly.

Luke

Thanks, Luke...
 

I was able to find the older thread and your photo.


Interesting, your luger did not get the "Not English Make" stamping on the right side of the frame...

Re: Thanks, Luke...
 

Pete. Johnny Peppers answered that one. The "Not English Make" was dropped after 1955